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> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more

> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more serious, like calling for actual Western war criminals, and those of Western allies, to be brought to court. You won't go to jail; because nobody (who matters) will listen to you. And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real chance at getting people in front of a judge and behind bars, that we can just guess at, since nobody has done it before.

seletz 10y ago
Oh, I think Mr. Snowden would disagree on the "nobody has done it before." And he wasn't the first.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  no matter how i admire mr snowden, I didn't catch any news mentioning someone from US agencies/government being bought before judge because of his revelations. Did I miss something?
- the_af 10y ago
  I don't know that Snowden is a good example: he had to flee his country in a hurry. There is a great deal of uncertainty about whether he would have a fair trial in the US, a country where many are calling him a traitor.
  - fixermark 10y ago
    That's seletz's point. It's easy for people to embrace the rhetoric that China is a bound society and the West is made of free societies. In reality, the shape of the bindings is different. A free society wouldn't have forced a man to flee because he knew he wouldn't find justice after revealing an uncomfortable political truth to the public that is oppressed by it. America's methods are different, but being a superpower and an empire demands supreme authority in key areas.
    - the_af 10y ago
      Oh, if that was seletz's point, then I agree with it. I thought he was claiming in the US it was possible to be a dissident without censorship or repression. My mistake!
      - seletz 10y ago
        Well -- I think it's a bit more subtle than that. And maybe a bit more scary. While one would believe that there can be "dissidents" in the US w/o repression based on what one reads on the net -- e.g. the the "US" representing the "free world" yadda yadda ... -- the repressions and censorships are more subtle in general. Also, one must not confuse the US with "the western world". I live in Germany, and I believe that you could be a dissident here w/o censorship. I also believe this is true for most other European countries. My original point was that the statement: > And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real chance at getting people in front of a judge and behind bars, that we can just guess at, since nobody has done it before. Is simply not true. Mentioned Mr. Snowden as an example -- but there are more, like the huge leak of the panama papers.
        fixermark 10y ago
        > I live in Germany, and I believe that you could be a dissident here w/o censorship. Just don't say "The Nazis are great and I really wish they were back in power." That'll get you straight-up jailed under section 86a of Strafgesetzbuch, if I understand correctly. Everything else is on the table. ;) http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
        seletz 10y ago
        Well -- apart from the fact that you probably wouldn't () -- one can always come up with something which is against "rules". Be it social rules, rules you made up in your head, law and so on. Rules are what it takes apparently to uphold a coherent society. The question is what happens if you break the rules. Are there rules on how to handle individuals who break rules? Do the ones who have the power also have to follow the same rules? What about those wo make the rules? Do they have to follow the rules? How is the process of rule-making, rule-checking and punishing separated? I'm pretty sure that in most european countries this is pretty OK -- yes there are gaps, holes, and sometimes just plain unjust or unfair processes. I'm also pretty damn sure that for some countries this is way off. China is IMNSHO one of them. () There are still people wandering about who say this and similar things who are not in jail. You much more likely would get in trouble if you call someone a "goat-fucker" (google erdogan and jan böhmermann).
westiseast 10y ago
They (Chinese people) don't have the freedom to denounce US imperialism though, because that implies a choice - if they were equally able to rejoice and accept western values as they were to reject them (like you can in the USA incidentally), then your statement would be right.
xixi77 10y ago
Are you suggesting that there is some sort of equivalence between people refusing to listen to your stuff, and getting sent to jail for your words/beliefs?
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  I said what I said. Why repeat it? Your question sounds like I couldn't be possibly serious. Assume I am serious.
AlgorithmicTime 10y ago
Examples of western war criminals who haven't been charged? Or is this just your political stance against anything the US/west does?
tripzilch 10y ago
> nobody (who matters) will listen to you I do like freedom of speech just about as far as I have the freedom to not have to listen to it (or, Goddess forbid, take it seriously).

seletz 10y ago

Oh, I think Mr. Snowden would disagree on the "nobody has done it before." And he wasn't the first.

saiya-jin 10y ago
no matter how i admire mr snowden, I didn't catch any news mentioning someone from US agencies/government being bought before judge because of his revelations. Did I miss something?
the_af 10y ago
I don't know that Snowden is a good example: he had to flee his country in a hurry. There is a great deal of uncertainty about whether he would have a fair trial in the US, a country where many are calling him a traitor.
- fixermark 10y ago
  That's seletz's point. It's easy for people to embrace the rhetoric that China is a bound society and the West is made of free societies. In reality, the shape of the bindings is different. A free society wouldn't have forced a man to flee because he knew he wouldn't find justice after revealing an uncomfortable political truth to the public that is oppressed by it. America's methods are different, but being a superpower and an empire demands supreme authority in key areas.
  - the_af 10y ago
    Oh, if that was seletz's point, then I agree with it. I thought he was claiming in the US it was possible to be a dissident without censorship or repression. My mistake!
    - seletz 10y ago
      Well -- I think it's a bit more subtle than that. And maybe a bit more scary. While one would believe that there can be "dissidents" in the US w/o repression based on what one reads on the net -- e.g. the the "US" representing the "free world" yadda yadda ... -- the repressions and censorships are more subtle in general. Also, one must not confuse the US with "the western world". I live in Germany, and I believe that you could be a dissident here w/o censorship. I also believe this is true for most other European countries. My original point was that the statement: > And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real chance at getting people in front of a judge and behind bars, that we can just guess at, since nobody has done it before. Is simply not true. Mentioned Mr. Snowden as an example -- but there are more, like the huge leak of the panama papers.
      - fixermark 10y ago
        > I live in Germany, and I believe that you could be a dissident here w/o censorship. Just don't say "The Nazis are great and I really wish they were back in power." That'll get you straight-up jailed under section 86a of Strafgesetzbuch, if I understand correctly. Everything else is on the table. ;) http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
        seletz 10y ago
        Well -- apart from the fact that you probably wouldn't () -- one can always come up with something which is against "rules". Be it social rules, rules you made up in your head, law and so on. Rules are what it takes apparently to uphold a coherent society. The question is what happens if you break the rules. Are there rules on how to handle individuals who break rules? Do the ones who have the power also have to follow the same rules? What about those wo make the rules? Do they have to follow the rules? How is the process of rule-making, rule-checking and punishing separated? I'm pretty sure that in most european countries this is pretty OK -- yes there are gaps, holes, and sometimes just plain unjust or unfair processes. I'm also pretty damn sure that for some countries this is way off. China is IMNSHO one of them. () There are still people wandering about who say this and similar things who are not in jail. You much more likely would get in trouble if you call someone a "goat-fucker" (google erdogan and jan böhmermann).

westiseast 10y ago

They (Chinese people) don't have the freedom to denounce US imperialism though, because that implies a choice - if they were equally able to rejoice and accept western values as they were to reject them (like you can in the USA incidentally), then your statement would be right.

xixi77 10y ago

Are you suggesting that there is some sort of equivalence between people refusing to listen to your stuff, and getting sent to jail for your words/beliefs?

PavlovsCat 10y ago
I said what I said. Why repeat it? Your question sounds like I couldn't be possibly serious. Assume I am serious.

AlgorithmicTime 10y ago

Examples of western war criminals who haven't been charged? Or is this just your political stance against anything the US/west does?

tripzilch 10y ago

> nobody (who matters) will listen to you I do like freedom of speech just about as far as I have the freedom to not have to listen to it (or, Goddess forbid, take it seriously).