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>Most people I know don't like the sanctions against Russia >people's "No" vote is just ignored >Maybe because the "extreme" left and right have much less aff

>Most people I know don't like the sanctions against Russia >people's "No" vote is just ignored >Maybe because the "extreme" left and right have much less affiliations and friends in the EU This points make me really sad. First, because right-wing parties are actively propped up by Russian govt [1]; second, because Russia openly engaged in propaganda and false flags campaign against Ukraine in EU [2]; third, because I'm Russian, an external pressure on the regime is one of the few hopes for a change, and it seems like Russian govt is strong at least in your network, so the pressure will not become stronger. Additionally, quite a few nice people will probably be infected by memes that poisoned Russian society for decades. It's really sad. [1]: http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/world/2500-putinism-and-the-european-far-right http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/world/2500-putinism-and-the-... [2]: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/04/03/azov-video/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/04/03/azo...

teekert 10y ago
The way I see it, but please correct me if I'm wrong (don't hold back), Putin (and Russian politics in general) is caught between the old and new generations of Russia, during the Jeltsin era we saw that being an all out liberal, democrat, power to the people person did not land you at the top of the country at all. This is still true probably (because you need backing of the old powers) so what is currently at the top in Russia is probably what will keep Russia together. I think that with the younger generation growing up, Russia will become more and more liberal, it will take time. Yes, many things in Russia are as they were here in the 60's (gay rights etc) but here we also had the time to mature (especially regarding personal freedom) without much violence. Why does the west have to rush things, make a Woman with a mustache win the EU song festival in the Ukraine, make the world press photo a gay couple in Russia? Is such pressure really the best? Why not be friendly with Russia, show them the benefits of our society without enforcing our ethics? Why the war mongering? The EU also sneakily, under suspect circumstances put a pro EU person in Power in the Ukraine. This makes Russia afraid of the ever growing NATO. Are you part of a liberal minority? I can see you want change as fast as possible but what is as fast as possible? I apologize if I come across particularly ignorant, it's difficult to find the truth between western news and RT. whenever I read RT I can certainly see and understand the fear of the NATO. I'm currently reading the new Tsar (about Putin) so far he seems to be loyal to the wrong people sometimes but much less corrupt than he could have been given the people around him (but I'm only half way.) Also he didn't attack Turkey after they took down that fighter, even though Turkey is doing oil business with IS. I'm not pro-Russia or Pro-Putin, I think we are worse of if we don't try to be friends. (I think the Russians love their children too ;) )
- lambdadmitry 10y ago
  Oh, this will be A LONG answer. I will honestly try to do my best to be objective. There will be errors, too, so I apologize in advance. If you find some point unlikely or doubtful, please let me know: I can prove most of the following claims, but I may skip the link or proof in this particular comment. As for me: I am, as you've put it, "a part of a liberal minority". However, I don't think that it should discount my take on the issue: the term "liberal" in Russia is almost nonsensical. Practically anyone who isn't pro-govt is "liberal" here, regardless of their left/right-ism. I can see how Russia is a curiosity for westerners: it's (physically) big, it was "the second superpower" not long ago, and it "plays with big boys" now. In the same time, the inner workings of Russia are largely unknown, mostly because of lack of interest of Western media and Russian govt making their lives harder (visas, accreditation, etc.) In this situation, the only Russian narrative that is available for westerns is governmental one through RT. The larger context is missing, as evidenced by your comment. However, I honestly recommend staying away from RT. They are completely oblivious for journalistic ethics [1] [9] and don't mind constructing alternative realities, even if they don't do it as shamelessly as their Russian-speaking colleagues. I will try to provide a bit of that context from several viewpoints. First, we need to consider everyday lives of common Russians. No doubt they got better in the last years, but a big part of the improvement can be explained by the low base effect. When you see Moscow or Saint-Petersburg on RT or in movies, don't mistake it for the rest of Russia. Most of the Russian cities look more or less like Omsk [2], which is terrible despite having more than a million of residents. I was born in a city called Samara and it is very similar to Omsk. So yeah, when Putin says anything that implies Russia being on par with its western counterparts, remember that it's still a huge problem here to have roads that don't run off with the snow every autumn. Another part of everyday life is salary. The median net income in Russia is around $300. This is in part because of insane taxes (47% [3]), which are mostly paid by an employer from the salary fund to hide them from the workforce (most Russians never filled their taxes and don't really know how much do they pay). There is also 18% VAT on every good you can buy and additional duties on a lot of goods (e.g. cars). For all this money paid to the government, you can get the average pension of $200 (I wasn't able to find a median pension). Second, let's move to a bigger picture. You are right that current Russian political situation can be seen as a backlash from "shock democratization" of the 1990s. However, this view is undermined by the fact that the current President holds power for 16 consecutive years now (the thing with Medvedev is that he is a sockpuppet) and isn't going to stand down at all. Moreover, what is apparent in the last five years is that the system isn't going any better; it's going far, far worse, descending right into fascism. I don't use this word lightly and I mean fascism in the classic Mussolinian sense. I suspect you've heard something about mass protests in Russia in 2012. However, it is less known what triggered them: the amount and straightforwardness of electoral fraud were staggering on parliament elections of 2011 and presidential elections of 2012. I was working on a polling station and ensured correct ballot counting, but then the results were rewritten right under my nose, covered by police. Additionally, all independent watchers and polling board members were forced out of district's polling station by OMON, our local variation of SWAT. Do I need to mention that it's completely illegal, it was done in the whole country, it was widely publicized in the independent press and still no one went to jail and nothing got recounted? After that, things went south. For the inauguration streets of Moscow were swept clean of anyone who can cause trouble [4] [5]. Elections of governors were called off. People that participated in protests started to get arrested and went to jail for 2-3 years on the base of ridiculous charges. The biggest Russian social network Vkontakte changed its owner to an oligarch associated with Kremlin. Annexation of Crimea happened, followed by the military invasion of Ukraine. MH17 got downed. Laws are in the making to oblige mobile operators to record all phone calls and store them for three years, providing completely unrestricted and unsupervised access to state's special services. Ah yes, operators are already obliged to provide them real-time access to all their customers' calls and internet data, buying surveillance equipment by themselves from state-approved vendors (do I need to mention the word "corruption" here?). It's illegal to sell internet access in Russia without surveillance equipment installed — so much for "evil and unsupervised NSA". Another issue is total state control of all big media outlets. Russian TV is constructing parallel reality 24/7 (the latest example [6]), preaching hate, spiritual decline of the Western world and the "Russia is surrounded by enemies, so we should consolidate around our leader Vladimir Putin"-meme (which is straight out from Mussolini's book). As an example of how low it gets, a few weeks ago they've aired in prime time home porn shot by a hidden camera (most likely planted by special services) featuring former prime minister (he is now an opposition) and his girlfriend. An attempt to sue the channel got nowhere, courts just refuse to consider the case. Speaking of which, you've mentioned "fear of the NATO" and I think that it's NATO (and you) who should be afraid — during the last 25 years, Russia supported and ensured secession of 5 territories (Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Crimea, and Donbass), while no foreign boots were on the Russian ground in the same time period. You can also add Gotland nuclear exercises [7], among other offensive ones, to the mix if you aren't afraid enough. There is no sense in "Russia is afraid of NATO so it annexes territories" meme because the former part can't justify the latter. Third, we need to consider who really are the rulers of modern Russia. Humanities were neglected, to say the least, during Soviet time, so there is a gap in most older people's education here in Russia. In addition, Putin himself has almost no formal education (he studied law in Soviet university and this can't pass for an education), had some KGB training and plagiarized his thesis [8]. It's no surprise that zero-sum game mentality is prevalent in Russian public discourse, including official statements, and ethics aren't ever considered (not even a lip service). This is a stark contrast with Western politicians, but I doubt that it's noticeable by foreigners. I'm sorry if the comment is too long or too obscure; I've tried my best to convey some internal context with it. As for me, I strongly believe in positive-sum games, progress and possibility to uphold some ethical standards no matter what (e.g. the importance of human life). From this standpoint, I see current Russian government as a very dangerous setback in Russian's way to a civilized world with all this lying, jailing, killing and hating. I don't know how this dark period will end, but I suspect it may be bloody — social institutions (elections, media, police, ethics) are purposely destroyed and all political alternatives are quenched (sometimes killed, e.g. Boris Nemtsov). The melancholy of powerlessness is now common in people who wanted change in 2012, future seems bleak and the only hope for help is from outside. This is why I reacted to your comment the way I did: I wish that "people of the Western world" cared and understood a bit more about their Eastern neighbor, so seeing that comment stung. I also don't think that you should be friends with Putin's government :) [1]: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/enforcement/broadcast-bulletins/obb288/Issue_288.pdf http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/enforcement/broadc... page 5 and onwards [2]: http://varlamov.ru/1637956.html http://varlamov.ru/1637956.html (in Russian, but pics should speak for themselves) [3]: http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/services/tax/paying-taxes-2016/comparative-modeller.html http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/services/tax/paying-taxes-2016/comp... [4]: https://youtu.be/TNiWnSOsAnE?t=359 https://youtu.be/TNiWnSOsAnE?t=359 [5]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8_0fmen1xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8_0fmen1xk [6]: http://belsat.eu/en/news/lost-in-translation-russian-tv-distorts-truth-by-intent-france-s-le-petit-journal/ http://belsat.eu/en/news/lost-in-translation-russian-tv-dist... [7]: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12139943/Russia-simulated-a-nuclear-strike-against-Sweden-Nato-admits.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1213... [8]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/18/russias-plagiarism-problem-even-putin-has-done-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/... [9]: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207642029506255&set=a.10202388566252957.1073741826.1157027897&type=3&permPage=1 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207642029506255&se...
dang 10y ago
Most of your recent comments to HN have been political. That's not really what this site is for. The current thread is pure politics, of course, but it's also not about the direction you're taking it in here, and internecine politics are worse. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11760362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11760362 and marked it off-topic.
- lambdadmitry 10y ago
  Sorry, I will refrain from further comments. I've just tried to provide a balanced input to the things where I could do so, but I see your point. >internecine politics This wasn't my intention at all.

teekert 10y ago

The way I see it, but please correct me if I'm wrong (don't hold back), Putin (and Russian politics in general) is caught between the old and new generations of Russia, during the Jeltsin era we saw that being an all out liberal, democrat, power to the people person did not land you at the top of the country at all. This is still true probably (because you need backing of the old powers) so what is currently at the top in Russia is probably what will keep Russia together. I think that with the younger generation growing up, Russia will become more and more liberal, it will take time. Yes, many things in Russia are as they were here in the 60's (gay rights etc) but here we also had the time to mature (especially regarding personal freedom) without much violence. Why does the west have to rush things, make a Woman with a mustache win the EU song festival in the Ukraine, make the world press photo a gay couple in Russia? Is such pressure really the best? Why not be friendly with Russia, show them the benefits of our society without enforcing our ethics? Why the war mongering? The EU also sneakily, under suspect circumstances put a pro EU person in Power in the Ukraine. This makes Russia afraid of the ever growing NATO. Are you part of a liberal minority? I can see you want change as fast as possible but what is as fast as possible? I apologize if I come across particularly ignorant, it's difficult to find the truth between western news and RT. whenever I read RT I can certainly see and understand the fear of the NATO. I'm currently reading the new Tsar (about Putin) so far he seems to be loyal to the wrong people sometimes but much less corrupt than he could have been given the people around him (but I'm only half way.) Also he didn't attack Turkey after they took down that fighter, even though Turkey is doing oil business with IS. I'm not pro-Russia or Pro-Putin, I think we are worse of if we don't try to be friends. (I think the Russians love their children too ;) )

lambdadmitry 10y ago
Oh, this will be A LONG answer. I will honestly try to do my best to be objective. There will be errors, too, so I apologize in advance. If you find some point unlikely or doubtful, please let me know: I can prove most of the following claims, but I may skip the link or proof in this particular comment. As for me: I am, as you've put it, "a part of a liberal minority". However, I don't think that it should discount my take on the issue: the term "liberal" in Russia is almost nonsensical. Practically anyone who isn't pro-govt is "liberal" here, regardless of their left/right-ism. I can see how Russia is a curiosity for westerners: it's (physically) big, it was "the second superpower" not long ago, and it "plays with big boys" now. In the same time, the inner workings of Russia are largely unknown, mostly because of lack of interest of Western media and Russian govt making their lives harder (visas, accreditation, etc.) In this situation, the only Russian narrative that is available for westerns is governmental one through RT. The larger context is missing, as evidenced by your comment. However, I honestly recommend staying away from RT. They are completely oblivious for journalistic ethics [1] [9] and don't mind constructing alternative realities, even if they don't do it as shamelessly as their Russian-speaking colleagues. I will try to provide a bit of that context from several viewpoints. First, we need to consider everyday lives of common Russians. No doubt they got better in the last years, but a big part of the improvement can be explained by the low base effect. When you see Moscow or Saint-Petersburg on RT or in movies, don't mistake it for the rest of Russia. Most of the Russian cities look more or less like Omsk [2], which is terrible despite having more than a million of residents. I was born in a city called Samara and it is very similar to Omsk. So yeah, when Putin says anything that implies Russia being on par with its western counterparts, remember that it's still a huge problem here to have roads that don't run off with the snow every autumn. Another part of everyday life is salary. The median net income in Russia is around $300. This is in part because of insane taxes (47% [3]), which are mostly paid by an employer from the salary fund to hide them from the workforce (most Russians never filled their taxes and don't really know how much do they pay). There is also 18% VAT on every good you can buy and additional duties on a lot of goods (e.g. cars). For all this money paid to the government, you can get the average pension of $200 (I wasn't able to find a median pension). Second, let's move to a bigger picture. You are right that current Russian political situation can be seen as a backlash from "shock democratization" of the 1990s. However, this view is undermined by the fact that the current President holds power for 16 consecutive years now (the thing with Medvedev is that he is a sockpuppet) and isn't going to stand down at all. Moreover, what is apparent in the last five years is that the system isn't going any better; it's going far, far worse, descending right into fascism. I don't use this word lightly and I mean fascism in the classic Mussolinian sense. I suspect you've heard something about mass protests in Russia in 2012. However, it is less known what triggered them: the amount and straightforwardness of electoral fraud were staggering on parliament elections of 2011 and presidential elections of 2012. I was working on a polling station and ensured correct ballot counting, but then the results were rewritten right under my nose, covered by police. Additionally, all independent watchers and polling board members were forced out of district's polling station by OMON, our local variation of SWAT. Do I need to mention that it's completely illegal, it was done in the whole country, it was widely publicized in the independent press and still no one went to jail and nothing got recounted? After that, things went south. For the inauguration streets of Moscow were swept clean of anyone who can cause trouble [4] [5]. Elections of governors were called off. People that participated in protests started to get arrested and went to jail for 2-3 years on the base of ridiculous charges. The biggest Russian social network Vkontakte changed its owner to an oligarch associated with Kremlin. Annexation of Crimea happened, followed by the military invasion of Ukraine. MH17 got downed. Laws are in the making to oblige mobile operators to record all phone calls and store them for three years, providing completely unrestricted and unsupervised access to state's special services. Ah yes, operators are already obliged to provide them real-time access to all their customers' calls and internet data, buying surveillance equipment by themselves from state-approved vendors (do I need to mention the word "corruption" here?). It's illegal to sell internet access in Russia without surveillance equipment installed — so much for "evil and unsupervised NSA". Another issue is total state control of all big media outlets. Russian TV is constructing parallel reality 24/7 (the latest example [6]), preaching hate, spiritual decline of the Western world and the "Russia is surrounded by enemies, so we should consolidate around our leader Vladimir Putin"-meme (which is straight out from Mussolini's book). As an example of how low it gets, a few weeks ago they've aired in prime time home porn shot by a hidden camera (most likely planted by special services) featuring former prime minister (he is now an opposition) and his girlfriend. An attempt to sue the channel got nowhere, courts just refuse to consider the case. Speaking of which, you've mentioned "fear of the NATO" and I think that it's NATO (and you) who should be afraid — during the last 25 years, Russia supported and ensured secession of 5 territories (Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Crimea, and Donbass), while no foreign boots were on the Russian ground in the same time period. You can also add Gotland nuclear exercises [7], among other offensive ones, to the mix if you aren't afraid enough. There is no sense in "Russia is afraid of NATO so it annexes territories" meme because the former part can't justify the latter. Third, we need to consider who really are the rulers of modern Russia. Humanities were neglected, to say the least, during Soviet time, so there is a gap in most older people's education here in Russia. In addition, Putin himself has almost no formal education (he studied law in Soviet university and this can't pass for an education), had some KGB training and plagiarized his thesis [8]. It's no surprise that zero-sum game mentality is prevalent in Russian public discourse, including official statements, and ethics aren't ever considered (not even a lip service). This is a stark contrast with Western politicians, but I doubt that it's noticeable by foreigners. I'm sorry if the comment is too long or too obscure; I've tried my best to convey some internal context with it. As for me, I strongly believe in positive-sum games, progress and possibility to uphold some ethical standards no matter what (e.g. the importance of human life). From this standpoint, I see current Russian government as a very dangerous setback in Russian's way to a civilized world with all this lying, jailing, killing and hating. I don't know how this dark period will end, but I suspect it may be bloody — social institutions (elections, media, police, ethics) are purposely destroyed and all political alternatives are quenched (sometimes killed, e.g. Boris Nemtsov). The melancholy of powerlessness is now common in people who wanted change in 2012, future seems bleak and the only hope for help is from outside. This is why I reacted to your comment the way I did: I wish that "people of the Western world" cared and understood a bit more about their Eastern neighbor, so seeing that comment stung. I also don't think that you should be friends with Putin's government :) [1]: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/enforcement/broadcast-bulletins/obb288/Issue_288.pdf http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/enforcement/broadc... page 5 and onwards [2]: http://varlamov.ru/1637956.html http://varlamov.ru/1637956.html (in Russian, but pics should speak for themselves) [3]: http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/services/tax/paying-taxes-2016/comparative-modeller.html http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/services/tax/paying-taxes-2016/comp... [4]: https://youtu.be/TNiWnSOsAnE?t=359 https://youtu.be/TNiWnSOsAnE?t=359 [5]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8_0fmen1xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8_0fmen1xk [6]: http://belsat.eu/en/news/lost-in-translation-russian-tv-distorts-truth-by-intent-france-s-le-petit-journal/ http://belsat.eu/en/news/lost-in-translation-russian-tv-dist... [7]: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12139943/Russia-simulated-a-nuclear-strike-against-Sweden-Nato-admits.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1213... [8]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/18/russias-plagiarism-problem-even-putin-has-done-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/... [9]: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207642029506255&set=a.10202388566252957.1073741826.1157027897&type=3&permPage=1 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207642029506255&se...

dang 10y ago

Most of your recent comments to HN have been political. That's not really what this site is for. The current thread is pure politics, of course, but it's also not about the direction you're taking it in here, and internecine politics are worse. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11760362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11760362 and marked it off-topic.

lambdadmitry 10y ago
Sorry, I will refrain from further comments. I've just tried to provide a balanced input to the things where I could do so, but I see your point. >internecine politics This wasn't my intention at all.