4 ms·

"does not scapegoat the non-Christian migrants - they just don't want them in our country" - OH well, in that case... Any sorry for the sarcasm but "not wantin

"does not scapegoat the non-Christian migrants - they just don't want them in our country" - OH well, in that case... Any sorry for the sarcasm but "not wanting" and "leaving them to die" is a difference. Of course nobody wants to spend resources on refugees. But if someone prefers letting them die because integration is hard, then this is "right-wing".

lgieron 10y ago
Is not helping people starving or dying of Malaria in Africa/Asia right wing too? Both are some serious maladies affecting people very far from us, with whom we have nothing in common. As for the Syrians, they'd had to cross something like 6-7 borders before they even reach Poland. It would make just such much sense to ship them to US or Canada or Argentina. EDIT (probably a clearer way to make my point): Once the Syrians flee from the war zone to for example Turkey, their life is no longer in danger. So, them going from Turkey to Poland is not about saving lives, and cannot be posed as a moral argument.
- discordianfish 10y ago
  I'm living in Berlin. We could probably met in person later today if we want. Yet, reading your comments make me realize how little we have in common. I'm pretty sure I'd find plenty of Syrian people I would feel more connected to. I don't think the geography has anything to do it, neither how many borders are in in between. And regarding Malaria, we should help as well. But that's imply not the point. You making it about this is typical derailing we see from all the right wing populists.
  - lgieron 10y ago
    Ultimately it's not about "feeling connected to" but about identity and interests - people are wired to preserve the interests of their group (nations) above others. Multiculturalism can work ok in rich and safe bubbles (such as some areas of Berlin), but my guess is that it will break miserably when put under a true test, such as a war. As Poland happens to share a border with an aggressive empire, it's a scenario we need take into account.
    - discordianfish 10y ago
      I can't even.. That we are discussing on this platform with people all over the world and your position is that Multiculturalism can't work. Seriously? And on a larger scale Poland move to the right is irritating a lot of Europeans. I would be worried about your EU status and how this affects you and your neighborhood.
      - lgieron 10y ago
        According to studies done by Piketty, there's not a single case in the world where a backward country have opened themselves to global trade and it allowed them to rise to the first-world country status, while there are examples where it was achieved via protectionalism - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan. Knowing that, I think leaving the EU might do us good in the long term. (As for me personally, I tend to work remotely for US companies anyway, so in either case I won't be affected.) As for the cultural differences, my intuition is that this forum is not that diverse - not in fundamental ways. For example, how many people here condone religious dictatorships or sex with 9 year olds? And these are the kind of people who can settle in my multicultural neighbourhood, if I start letting them into the country.
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        You are confusing two different discussions here. The refugees we talk about are hardly people who hang out on HN. Multiculturalism works when there is time to adopt new cultures into your own. Sudden influx is going to create obvious conflicts when the cultures are that different. And I say that as someone who is pro multiculturalism. But I am not ignorant to the consequences if done too fast.
    - Xylakant 10y ago
      Poland wants and relies on help from the EU, that includes Germany. A lot of polish people benefit from the schengen system and the ability to work abroad. However, Poland tries to opt out of a significant chunk of the shared burdens of the european union, and one of those burdens is that the european union does have an asylum policy that accepts people that are threatened in their _home_ country - not countries that they've been fleeing through. It's a legacy of the world wars and the nazi genocides which saw a lot of people incapable of fleeing because no country would accept them - and IMHO - the embodiment of one of the most important core value of the often proclaimed christian tradition: Compassion towards others in need. Given that Poland happens to share a border with an aggressive empire (well, if you count the Kaliningrad enclave as sharing a border), I question the wisdom of opting out. If you're afraid of a war, I'd be more concerned about making friends than alienating them.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- petecox 10y ago
  Argentina is no stranger to Syrians, including an infamous president - Menem.
ptaipale 10y ago
The recent immigration wave in EU is not really about people who would be "left to die" if they weren't taken in. They are generally not fleeing from immediate danger, and they select their target countries of migration based on perceived chances of making a living (by work or by social security) and having a community where one could live (usually one's own countrymen). The perception of where one can make a living is received from often fanciful messages in social media that are of course frequently quite wrong. On the way, they pass through countries that are safe enough for them to stay. Countries that are safe for anyone to take holiday. Millions of people from EU have holiday in Turkey and Greece each year, for instance. Migrants come through these countries. They are certainly not being killed in Turkey, for instance, but they want more than that. This doesn't mean that the migrants are bad people. They are looking for a better life, just like any of us would do. They come from many, many countries that are run badly. I can't blame them for wanting to emigrate. And the availability of Internet and improved economical resources and improved connections have made migration more feasible than ever, particularly with the European taxpayer paying the bill at the receiving end through the asylum process. But the asylum mechanism meant for protecting persecuted individuals is largely being misused in this process. The public perception of the whole thing being a scam is strengthened by well-meaning but unwise poses and statements of politicians that later make them look ridiculous. For example, thousands of people from Iraq came to my country last autumn. We were told that they were here because otherwise they would be killed. They complained about the food served to them and they complained that they were given too little money by the government. Now a significant portion of them has decided to go back to Iraq. Obviously, they weren't about to be killed back then, nor are they now voluntarily returning to their deaths. They just found that climate is not nice, and there are no jobs for untrained people. So the taxpayer hands out money for them to fly back. That's what I call ineffective, and this kind of things gets voters mad. Calling these voters "right wing" or "Nazis" is not going to help. They well merely think: "I'm a reasonable person and they call me right wing; I guess the right wing is reasonable people then".
- discordianfish 10y ago
  > For example, thousands of people from Iraq came to my country last autumn. ... > They complained about the food served to them and they complained that they were given too little money by the government. > Now a significant portion of them has decided to go back to Iraq. Obviously, they weren't about to be killed back then, nor are they now voluntarily returning to their deaths. > They just found that climate is not nice, and there are no jobs for untrained people. So the taxpayer hands out money for them to fly back. You have any sources for that? I'm trying to imaging someone fleeing by risking their lives and paying with all their savings and then return because they didn't like the weather. This sounds like right wing propaganda to me. And whether people consider themself as reasonable or not doesn't matter. It matters whether they are.

lgieron 10y ago

Is not helping people starving or dying of Malaria in Africa/Asia right wing too? Both are some serious maladies affecting people very far from us, with whom we have nothing in common. As for the Syrians, they'd had to cross something like 6-7 borders before they even reach Poland. It would make just such much sense to ship them to US or Canada or Argentina. EDIT (probably a clearer way to make my point): Once the Syrians flee from the war zone to for example Turkey, their life is no longer in danger. So, them going from Turkey to Poland is not about saving lives, and cannot be posed as a moral argument.

discordianfish 10y ago
I'm living in Berlin. We could probably met in person later today if we want. Yet, reading your comments make me realize how little we have in common. I'm pretty sure I'd find plenty of Syrian people I would feel more connected to. I don't think the geography has anything to do it, neither how many borders are in in between. And regarding Malaria, we should help as well. But that's imply not the point. You making it about this is typical derailing we see from all the right wing populists.
- lgieron 10y ago
  Ultimately it's not about "feeling connected to" but about identity and interests - people are wired to preserve the interests of their group (nations) above others. Multiculturalism can work ok in rich and safe bubbles (such as some areas of Berlin), but my guess is that it will break miserably when put under a true test, such as a war. As Poland happens to share a border with an aggressive empire, it's a scenario we need take into account.
  - discordianfish 10y ago
    I can't even.. That we are discussing on this platform with people all over the world and your position is that Multiculturalism can't work. Seriously? And on a larger scale Poland move to the right is irritating a lot of Europeans. I would be worried about your EU status and how this affects you and your neighborhood.
    - lgieron 10y ago
      According to studies done by Piketty, there's not a single case in the world where a backward country have opened themselves to global trade and it allowed them to rise to the first-world country status, while there are examples where it was achieved via protectionalism - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan. Knowing that, I think leaving the EU might do us good in the long term. (As for me personally, I tend to work remotely for US companies anyway, so in either case I won't be affected.) As for the cultural differences, my intuition is that this forum is not that diverse - not in fundamental ways. For example, how many people here condone religious dictatorships or sex with 9 year olds? And these are the kind of people who can settle in my multicultural neighbourhood, if I start letting them into the country.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      You are confusing two different discussions here. The refugees we talk about are hardly people who hang out on HN. Multiculturalism works when there is time to adopt new cultures into your own. Sudden influx is going to create obvious conflicts when the cultures are that different. And I say that as someone who is pro multiculturalism. But I am not ignorant to the consequences if done too fast.
  - Xylakant 10y ago
    Poland wants and relies on help from the EU, that includes Germany. A lot of polish people benefit from the schengen system and the ability to work abroad. However, Poland tries to opt out of a significant chunk of the shared burdens of the european union, and one of those burdens is that the european union does have an asylum policy that accepts people that are threatened in their _home_ country - not countries that they've been fleeing through. It's a legacy of the world wars and the nazi genocides which saw a lot of people incapable of fleeing because no country would accept them - and IMHO - the embodiment of one of the most important core value of the often proclaimed christian tradition: Compassion towards others in need. Given that Poland happens to share a border with an aggressive empire (well, if you count the Kaliningrad enclave as sharing a border), I question the wisdom of opting out. If you're afraid of a war, I'd be more concerned about making friends than alienating them.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
petecox 10y ago
Argentina is no stranger to Syrians, including an infamous president - Menem.

ptaipale 10y ago

The recent immigration wave in EU is not really about people who would be "left to die" if they weren't taken in. They are generally not fleeing from immediate danger, and they select their target countries of migration based on perceived chances of making a living (by work or by social security) and having a community where one could live (usually one's own countrymen). The perception of where one can make a living is received from often fanciful messages in social media that are of course frequently quite wrong. On the way, they pass through countries that are safe enough for them to stay. Countries that are safe for anyone to take holiday. Millions of people from EU have holiday in Turkey and Greece each year, for instance. Migrants come through these countries. They are certainly not being killed in Turkey, for instance, but they want more than that. This doesn't mean that the migrants are bad people. They are looking for a better life, just like any of us would do. They come from many, many countries that are run badly. I can't blame them for wanting to emigrate. And the availability of Internet and improved economical resources and improved connections have made migration more feasible than ever, particularly with the European taxpayer paying the bill at the receiving end through the asylum process. But the asylum mechanism meant for protecting persecuted individuals is largely being misused in this process. The public perception of the whole thing being a scam is strengthened by well-meaning but unwise poses and statements of politicians that later make them look ridiculous. For example, thousands of people from Iraq came to my country last autumn. We were told that they were here because otherwise they would be killed. They complained about the food served to them and they complained that they were given too little money by the government. Now a significant portion of them has decided to go back to Iraq. Obviously, they weren't about to be killed back then, nor are they now voluntarily returning to their deaths. They just found that climate is not nice, and there are no jobs for untrained people. So the taxpayer hands out money for them to fly back. That's what I call ineffective, and this kind of things gets voters mad. Calling these voters "right wing" or "Nazis" is not going to help. They well merely think: "I'm a reasonable person and they call me right wing; I guess the right wing is reasonable people then".

discordianfish 10y ago
> For example, thousands of people from Iraq came to my country last autumn. ... > They complained about the food served to them and they complained that they were given too little money by the government. > Now a significant portion of them has decided to go back to Iraq. Obviously, they weren't about to be killed back then, nor are they now voluntarily returning to their deaths. > They just found that climate is not nice, and there are no jobs for untrained people. So the taxpayer hands out money for them to fly back. You have any sources for that? I'm trying to imaging someone fleeing by risking their lives and paying with all their savings and then return because they didn't like the weather. This sounds like right wing propaganda to me. And whether people consider themself as reasonable or not doesn't matter. It matters whether they are.