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A while back I had the thought that meditation for self-improvement is a non-starter. Meditation, supposedly done properly, is supposed to be non-judgemental ob

A while back I had the thought that meditation for self-improvement is a non-starter. Meditation, supposedly done properly, is supposed to be non-judgemental observation. But if you're approaching the whole practice as a way to improve some aspect of yourself, the entire foundation is flawed. In that case, the whole reason you're doing it is based on a negative judgement. I was wondering if someone more experienced with meditation can comment on this. Does this make any sense?

hiddencost 10y ago
What I draw from this is that you have a misguided notion of "self", "improvement", and "self-improvement". Just do the non-judgmental observation stuff and see what happens and decide if you want more of it.
MarkPNeyer 10y ago
I meditate about 20 minutes a night before i go to bed. Nonjudgement is a big part of this. I just sit there and observe my thoughts, without trying to change them. Why is this helpful? Because trying to change your thoughts is itself a form of thinking. Trying to change a thought is reacting to that thought, and a lot of my problems come from reacting to thoughts uncritically. When I sit there and just try to notice the thoughts, thoughts about disturbing thoughts bother me less and less. An unpleasant thought doesn't quickly lead to a progressive series of counter-thoughts or responses. To give you an example of how this helps: on the way to the grocery store yesterday, I thought "I'm out of beer, I could buy some beer." Reacting to the thought, without being critical of it, would mean going to buy the beer. But observing the thought allowed me to be aware of it and to _decide_ if that's what I actually wanted. I decided that no, I didn't really need the beer, and that I'd gain more utility from knowing I made a more responsible choice. For me, practicing nonjudgement allows me to better exercise judgement at suitable times. I couldn't tell you how many times i've gotten carried away giving imaginary speeches when I think about running for office - a practice which has caused me no good. It's like that judgement was entirely wasted. By meditating, I've become more aware of the background ebb and flow of thoughts, which has freed me up to be judgemental when it _matters_ - such as over the small part of the world I have control over, instead of wasting energy judging things I have no control over, because that's a conditioned response to unpleasant thoughts. I hope that helps. FWIW I did go through a 'dark night of the soul' period. It lasted a few years, and my life got noticeably worse, but eventually I stopped believing everything I thought, and focused on repairing my life, and now it's much better than it ever was. If meditation brings up dark or horrible thoughts - for me those were there all along, but I was just not paying attention because I constantly thought about getting rich, or politics, or starting a company, or p vs np, or whatever other abstractions i was into that day.
- jamesbrownsmith 10y ago
  Would you be able to go into what your 'dark night of the soul' period entailed?
  - MarkPNeyer 10y ago
    A drug addiction and struggle with mental illness (bipolar) ran through it. I was starting to understand emotion, and I felt like the world was based on lies. I knew I was different from everyone else but couldn't figure out how exactly. I identified more with the idea of being an AI than with being fully human. http://noisebloom.tumblr.com http://noisebloom.tumblr.com I expressed some of this on Tumblr of all places. I haven't touched this since the end of that whole process: I was hospitalized 5 times in a year and realized it was a matter of survival to fix my life.
rainy-day 10y ago
I think the confusion here may be between strategic and tactical levels. Strategically, your mind decides that it should move in a certain direction. After that initial decision is made, it finds that obsessive judgement is counter-productive, and so it tries to stop. That doesn't in any way mean that initial decision is void. Another possible reason is that idea of judgement of good and evil is primal in Western religions while in Eastern traditions, the idea of escape from state of confusion is primal. That's not to say that in the West, confusion is not considered a problem, or that in the East, doing or believing terrible things is ok. In meditation traditions, judgement between good and evil is just the first step, like a compass that points you in the right direction. In three major Western religions, once you make the proper judgement and choose the good side, you are done, finished.
gdubs 10y ago
Zazen, which I personally really like, is all about "practice" -- like practicing and instrument. So in a sense you're improving something. But where zen gets somewhat hard to write down on paper is this idea that you're trying to walk this middle line of trying but not trying. Kind of like walking with a cup of hot coffee -- don't spill it, but don't concentrate on not spilling it because you'll spill it :) Put in software terms, the improvements that come with meditation are "side effects" -- you're really just doing it to continually make your practice better. In that way it affects the rest of your life as you become more mindful of any activity you engage in. I recommend the book Zen Mind Beginner's mind -- it does a great job communicating this concept of balance.

hiddencost 10y ago

What I draw from this is that you have a misguided notion of "self", "improvement", and "self-improvement". Just do the non-judgmental observation stuff and see what happens and decide if you want more of it.

MarkPNeyer 10y ago

I meditate about 20 minutes a night before i go to bed. Nonjudgement is a big part of this. I just sit there and observe my thoughts, without trying to change them. Why is this helpful? Because trying to change your thoughts is itself a form of thinking. Trying to change a thought is reacting to that thought, and a lot of my problems come from reacting to thoughts uncritically. When I sit there and just try to notice the thoughts, thoughts about disturbing thoughts bother me less and less. An unpleasant thought doesn't quickly lead to a progressive series of counter-thoughts or responses. To give you an example of how this helps: on the way to the grocery store yesterday, I thought "I'm out of beer, I could buy some beer." Reacting to the thought, without being critical of it, would mean going to buy the beer. But observing the thought allowed me to be aware of it and to _decide_ if that's what I actually wanted. I decided that no, I didn't really need the beer, and that I'd gain more utility from knowing I made a more responsible choice. For me, practicing nonjudgement allows me to better exercise judgement at suitable times. I couldn't tell you how many times i've gotten carried away giving imaginary speeches when I think about running for office - a practice which has caused me no good. It's like that judgement was entirely wasted. By meditating, I've become more aware of the background ebb and flow of thoughts, which has freed me up to be judgemental when it _matters_ - such as over the small part of the world I have control over, instead of wasting energy judging things I have no control over, because that's a conditioned response to unpleasant thoughts. I hope that helps. FWIW I did go through a 'dark night of the soul' period. It lasted a few years, and my life got noticeably worse, but eventually I stopped believing everything I thought, and focused on repairing my life, and now it's much better than it ever was. If meditation brings up dark or horrible thoughts - for me those were there all along, but I was just not paying attention because I constantly thought about getting rich, or politics, or starting a company, or p vs np, or whatever other abstractions i was into that day.

jamesbrownsmith 10y ago
Would you be able to go into what your 'dark night of the soul' period entailed?
- MarkPNeyer 10y ago
  A drug addiction and struggle with mental illness (bipolar) ran through it. I was starting to understand emotion, and I felt like the world was based on lies. I knew I was different from everyone else but couldn't figure out how exactly. I identified more with the idea of being an AI than with being fully human. http://noisebloom.tumblr.com http://noisebloom.tumblr.com I expressed some of this on Tumblr of all places. I haven't touched this since the end of that whole process: I was hospitalized 5 times in a year and realized it was a matter of survival to fix my life.

rainy-day 10y ago

I think the confusion here may be between strategic and tactical levels. Strategically, your mind decides that it should move in a certain direction. After that initial decision is made, it finds that obsessive judgement is counter-productive, and so it tries to stop. That doesn't in any way mean that initial decision is void. Another possible reason is that idea of judgement of good and evil is primal in Western religions while in Eastern traditions, the idea of escape from state of confusion is primal. That's not to say that in the West, confusion is not considered a problem, or that in the East, doing or believing terrible things is ok. In meditation traditions, judgement between good and evil is just the first step, like a compass that points you in the right direction. In three major Western religions, once you make the proper judgement and choose the good side, you are done, finished.

gdubs 10y ago

Zazen, which I personally really like, is all about "practice" -- like practicing and instrument. So in a sense you're improving something. But where zen gets somewhat hard to write down on paper is this idea that you're trying to walk this middle line of trying but not trying. Kind of like walking with a cup of hot coffee -- don't spill it, but don't concentrate on not spilling it because you'll spill it :) Put in software terms, the improvements that come with meditation are "side effects" -- you're really just doing it to continually make your practice better. In that way it affects the rest of your life as you become more mindful of any activity you engage in. I recommend the book Zen Mind Beginner's mind -- it does a great job communicating this concept of balance.