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>What is the average number of hours you spend on a given project? That's a fair point; my project plans are usually measured in years, not hours. Of course th

by EpicEng 10y ago

>What is the average number of hours you spend on a given project? That's a fair point; my project plans are usually measured in years, not hours. Of course there is ongoing maintenance, but that's not where I spend most of my time. I didn't mean to imply that tools aren't important, or that we shouldn't care. We absolutely should care, and I do as well. The difference is that I don't feel the need to spend copious amounts of time defending my tools, or debating their merits with other people who will never agree with me. I evaluate them, use them, and move on. They are an integral part of my process, but not nearly as important as building something that solves real problems. It's the same old issue of religion v enthusiasm, belief v fanaticism. That line gets crossed too often and it's just a waste. I think some lose sight of what's important.

singlow 10y ago
Part of the reason it matters more to web developers is that often our clients and employers do care what we use and if we love a particular tool it needs widespread adoption to be able to use it on real work. I have potential clients asking constantly if I can build their project with WordPress or Rails or Drupal or Symphony or whatever else they think is the best. It would be much better if they just came and asked if I could build it and let me help them determine what is the best platform for their project and pre-existing skill set. Now, sometimes, they have a legitimate need to have it integrate with a larger system and using that tool has external advantages. But most of the time it is just a vague notion that if it is in WordPress it will be easy to use, cause you know, anyone can edit a WordPress site. But when you bolt a hundred plugins and custom business logic into WordPress, it makes no difference that it has any easy blog editor. That should have been a separate project to begin with. Half the time they have built 10% of what they need with a dozen plugins, think they are 90% done and that I can just make the rest of it work. This because someone told them there were plugins that could do everything they needed in WordPress and with WordPress they'd get good SEO. The point is that if we want to use a particular tool, we better evangelize for it, because clients never want something built in a framework they haven't heard of. It's not even irrational for the clients, since 50% of the time their developers disappear before the project is done and they have to find someone else who can pick it up and finish.
- collyw 10y ago
  Yeah, it made me smile when a non-technical friend had narrowed down the choice of languages for the project he wanted to build. "Python, Java or <something else>" Python and Java are relatively opposite ends of the web dev spectrum, and he didn't code so it was likely based on rants from the programmers around him. In the end his project failed because he couldn't find any Django devs to continue the project for a relatively low wage. He might have found some PHP devs if he had chosen that.
  - andybak 10y ago
    We're a small Django shop and I do weigh up this when deciding if we're the best option for a prospective client. If we build them a site then there is a maintenance cost that is potentially higher than there would be with a PHP site. Of course - the counter-argument is "a good PHP dev is no cheaper and just as hard to find" but for maintenance tasks you might only need an average (or even mediocre) dev - and it's a hell of a lot easier to find an average PHP dev than an average (insert less popular choice here) dev.
    - xamolxix 10y ago
      > average (or even mediocre) dev doesn't mediocre mean average?
      - andybak 10y ago
        I think it has probably now developed a more negative connotations by now: "good < average < mediocre < bad" sounds about right to me.
- busterarm 10y ago
  WordPress is a valid question/option for them if they have a large amount of content they have to add using their marketing staff instead of more expensive developer consultants. It also is if they don't have a years-long working relationship with you, because who is going to maintain all of this when you're gone? At least if they have to dump your work and build a new theme, they don't have to worry about figuring out a whole new data model (most of the time). WordPress done the right way uses plugins sparingly to get the job done, outside of obvious ones like Advanced Custom Fields Pro and Post 2 Post Links. WP isn't bad per-se, it's just the majority of people who work on it (and let's be honest, who built it) are/were rank amateurs.
ploxiln 10y ago
That's all true, and I do "backend" stuff so I'm in the same boat as you, but I think you might still not get the point of the more-projects-faster thing: To be competitive, web devs need to be working with the most popular framework, which has the most modules which are maintained (for stuff like "log in with facebook" or "publish photo to twitter" or "get weather for visitor's geo-ip location"). All this pre-packaged functionality does require some time to get familiar with, it's an ecosystem on top of a language with many DSLs. So they need to make their team win, or join the winning team early. Or else they don't feel like they can compete. It's a really big marketplace for web sites/apps out there, many small businesses get new-from-scratch websites every 2 years or less ... new shiny design drives consumer interest, it's not like they could afford for the old one to be maintainable anyway.
infinii 10y ago
Your project plan is measured in years? All the orange crops just froze over from the chills running down the backs of all the Agile\Lean practitioners.
- Qworg 10y ago
  Turns out that it is very hard to deliver any hardware project in a purely Agile environment - it lacks the capability for careful delivery of long lead time/critical path items, as well as failing to neatly fit into a sprint.

by EpicEng 10y ago

singlow 10y ago

Part of the reason it matters more to web developers is that often our clients and employers do care what we use and if we love a particular tool it needs widespread adoption to be able to use it on real work. I have potential clients asking constantly if I can build their project with WordPress or Rails or Drupal or Symphony or whatever else they think is the best. It would be much better if they just came and asked if I could build it and let me help them determine what is the best platform for their project and pre-existing skill set. Now, sometimes, they have a legitimate need to have it integrate with a larger system and using that tool has external advantages. But most of the time it is just a vague notion that if it is in WordPress it will be easy to use, cause you know, anyone can edit a WordPress site. But when you bolt a hundred plugins and custom business logic into WordPress, it makes no difference that it has any easy blog editor. That should have been a separate project to begin with. Half the time they have built 10% of what they need with a dozen plugins, think they are 90% done and that I can just make the rest of it work. This because someone told them there were plugins that could do everything they needed in WordPress and with WordPress they'd get good SEO. The point is that if we want to use a particular tool, we better evangelize for it, because clients never want something built in a framework they haven't heard of. It's not even irrational for the clients, since 50% of the time their developers disappear before the project is done and they have to find someone else who can pick it up and finish.

collyw 10y ago
Yeah, it made me smile when a non-technical friend had narrowed down the choice of languages for the project he wanted to build. "Python, Java or <something else>" Python and Java are relatively opposite ends of the web dev spectrum, and he didn't code so it was likely based on rants from the programmers around him. In the end his project failed because he couldn't find any Django devs to continue the project for a relatively low wage. He might have found some PHP devs if he had chosen that.
- andybak 10y ago
  We're a small Django shop and I do weigh up this when deciding if we're the best option for a prospective client. If we build them a site then there is a maintenance cost that is potentially higher than there would be with a PHP site. Of course - the counter-argument is "a good PHP dev is no cheaper and just as hard to find" but for maintenance tasks you might only need an average (or even mediocre) dev - and it's a hell of a lot easier to find an average PHP dev than an average (insert less popular choice here) dev.
  - xamolxix 10y ago
    > average (or even mediocre) dev doesn't mediocre mean average?
    - andybak 10y ago
      I think it has probably now developed a more negative connotations by now: "good < average < mediocre < bad" sounds about right to me.
busterarm 10y ago
WordPress is a valid question/option for them if they have a large amount of content they have to add using their marketing staff instead of more expensive developer consultants. It also is if they don't have a years-long working relationship with you, because who is going to maintain all of this when you're gone? At least if they have to dump your work and build a new theme, they don't have to worry about figuring out a whole new data model (most of the time). WordPress done the right way uses plugins sparingly to get the job done, outside of obvious ones like Advanced Custom Fields Pro and Post 2 Post Links. WP isn't bad per-se, it's just the majority of people who work on it (and let's be honest, who built it) are/were rank amateurs.

ploxiln 10y ago

That's all true, and I do "backend" stuff so I'm in the same boat as you, but I think you might still not get the point of the more-projects-faster thing: To be competitive, web devs need to be working with the most popular framework, which has the most modules which are maintained (for stuff like "log in with facebook" or "publish photo to twitter" or "get weather for visitor's geo-ip location"). All this pre-packaged functionality does require some time to get familiar with, it's an ecosystem on top of a language with many DSLs. So they need to make their team win, or join the winning team early. Or else they don't feel like they can compete. It's a really big marketplace for web sites/apps out there, many small businesses get new-from-scratch websites every 2 years or less ... new shiny design drives consumer interest, it's not like they could afford for the old one to be maintainable anyway.

infinii 10y ago

Your project plan is measured in years? All the orange crops just froze over from the chills running down the backs of all the Agile\Lean practitioners.

Qworg 10y ago
Turns out that it is very hard to deliver any hardware project in a purely Agile environment - it lacks the capability for careful delivery of long lead time/critical path items, as well as failing to neatly fit into a sprint.