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The Chinese own China and can decide for themselves what is best for their country. But as an American living in China, I fear that some of what I see here can

by IIAOPSW 10y ago

The Chinese own China and can decide for themselves what is best for their country. But as an American living in China, I fear that some of what I see here can and will happen in America one day.

duncan_bayne 10y ago
Sure; but you're not making a moral argument here right? That is, they can decide, but it's still objectively wrong.
- IIAOPSW 10y ago
  I am a guest in this country. Irrespective of what I believe is right or unalienable it is not my place to insert myself into their politics.
  - duncan_bayne 10y ago
    Ever? I'm hesitant to invoke Godwin here, but do you agree that at least in boundary cases, it's morally permissible to directly force a change in the internal politics of another country?
    - ralusek 10y ago
      Why would morals respect national borders?
    - dragontamer 10y ago
      If he's an American citizen, then he should just leave if things become really bad.
  - babuskov 10y ago
    Wow. I wish if more Americans would think like that.
hamstergene 10y ago
If you're locked in a kitchen, even though there is more than one choice of food are you free to decide what to eat? What if you was born there and don't really know all variety options you could have? Centralized propaganda makes "freedom of choice" very controversial topic. Especially when its source has all the power to censor and prosecute.
- chrischen 10y ago
  This article by Google's design ethicist shows how even in a free market world we end up with false freedoms. For example, if Facebook suggests posts from your friends, how do you know you have control of who you become friends with and interact with? How does Netflix's suggestions influence what movies you know about. He shows that even in our free world we're still influenced by propaganda that makes us have a false sense of freedom of choice. https://medium.com/@tristanharris/how-technology-hijacks-peoples-minds-from-a-magician-and-google-s-design-ethicist-56d62ef5edf3#.fy9jbhsb6 https://medium.com/@tristanharris/how-technology-hijacks-peo...
  - hamstergene 10y ago
    You're offering me a classic tu quoque response, aka "Guy A is deep in shit but guy B's boot has shit on it too therefore they're both in shit so A's problem with shit is kinda normal". Yes, freedom always has restrictions, everywhere. But it does not always smell so suspicious. Facebook making some choices for you and Facebook being blocked completely for making it too easy to read unapproved opinions are very different levels of the problem.
- IIAOPSW 10y ago
  You know, this is a great example. Let me continue the kitchen analogy. Those of us born in the West are lead to think that being stuck in the kitchen sucks. That people stuck in the kitchen will suffer and/or be in a constant state of revolt and unhappiness. I know thats how I thought before I left (whether I realized it or not). Consequently we think that America is quite far from being stuck in the kitchen because things don't look remotely close to what we imagine being stuck looks like. Let me tell you what's truly scary about China: the censorship, authoritarian rule, all the "stuck in the kitchen things" are a lot more palatable than we are lead to believe. The Americans have a cartoonish view of authoritarianism so-much-so that we will not recognize it on our own shores. That terrifies me and that's why I left my comment. I wish I had the words to explain this better. I can't change China. Even if it was democratic I don't and shouldn't have a voice here. It is not my country. China belongs to the Chinese people, not to me. What I can say is that I don't want to see America copying China with respect to civil liberties.
gohrt 10y ago
The Chinese do not control China. The Chinese Communist Party controls China.
- charoko 10y ago
  "The CPC is currently the world's second largest political party with a membership of 87.79 million as of 2015. To join the party, an applicant must be 18 years of age, and must spend a year as a probationary member. In contrast to the past, when emphasis was placed on the applicants' ideological criteria, the current CPC stresses technical and educational qualifications." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China
- pessimizer 10y ago
  Of course, you can say this about every government. Americans do not control America. The American government controls America.

by IIAOPSW 10y ago

The Chinese own China and can decide for themselves what is best for their country. But as an American living in China, I fear that some of what I see here can and will happen in America one day.

duncan_bayne 10y ago

Sure; but you're not making a moral argument here right? That is, they can decide, but it's still objectively wrong.

IIAOPSW 10y ago
I am a guest in this country. Irrespective of what I believe is right or unalienable it is not my place to insert myself into their politics.
- duncan_bayne 10y ago
  Ever? I'm hesitant to invoke Godwin here, but do you agree that at least in boundary cases, it's morally permissible to directly force a change in the internal politics of another country?
  - ralusek 10y ago
    Why would morals respect national borders?
  - dragontamer 10y ago
    If he's an American citizen, then he should just leave if things become really bad.
- babuskov 10y ago
  Wow. I wish if more Americans would think like that.

hamstergene 10y ago

If you're locked in a kitchen, even though there is more than one choice of food are you free to decide what to eat? What if you was born there and don't really know all variety options you could have? Centralized propaganda makes "freedom of choice" very controversial topic. Especially when its source has all the power to censor and prosecute.

chrischen 10y ago
This article by Google's design ethicist shows how even in a free market world we end up with false freedoms. For example, if Facebook suggests posts from your friends, how do you know you have control of who you become friends with and interact with? How does Netflix's suggestions influence what movies you know about. He shows that even in our free world we're still influenced by propaganda that makes us have a false sense of freedom of choice. https://medium.com/@tristanharris/how-technology-hijacks-peoples-minds-from-a-magician-and-google-s-design-ethicist-56d62ef5edf3#.fy9jbhsb6 https://medium.com/@tristanharris/how-technology-hijacks-peo...
- hamstergene 10y ago
  You're offering me a classic tu quoque response, aka "Guy A is deep in shit but guy B's boot has shit on it too therefore they're both in shit so A's problem with shit is kinda normal". Yes, freedom always has restrictions, everywhere. But it does not always smell so suspicious. Facebook making some choices for you and Facebook being blocked completely for making it too easy to read unapproved opinions are very different levels of the problem.
IIAOPSW 10y ago
You know, this is a great example. Let me continue the kitchen analogy. Those of us born in the West are lead to think that being stuck in the kitchen sucks. That people stuck in the kitchen will suffer and/or be in a constant state of revolt and unhappiness. I know thats how I thought before I left (whether I realized it or not). Consequently we think that America is quite far from being stuck in the kitchen because things don't look remotely close to what we imagine being stuck looks like. Let me tell you what's truly scary about China: the censorship, authoritarian rule, all the "stuck in the kitchen things" are a lot more palatable than we are lead to believe. The Americans have a cartoonish view of authoritarianism so-much-so that we will not recognize it on our own shores. That terrifies me and that's why I left my comment. I wish I had the words to explain this better. I can't change China. Even if it was democratic I don't and shouldn't have a voice here. It is not my country. China belongs to the Chinese people, not to me. What I can say is that I don't want to see America copying China with respect to civil liberties.

gohrt 10y ago

The Chinese do not control China. The Chinese Communist Party controls China.

charoko 10y ago
"The CPC is currently the world's second largest political party with a membership of 87.79 million as of 2015. To join the party, an applicant must be 18 years of age, and must spend a year as a probationary member. In contrast to the past, when emphasis was placed on the applicants' ideological criteria, the current CPC stresses technical and educational qualifications." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China
pessimizer 10y ago
Of course, you can say this about every government. Americans do not control America. The American government controls America.