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I'm not going to say I'm the most experienced meditator in the world, but I've gone fairly deep. I'd argue that if you aren't getting into weird ego-dissolution

I'm not going to say I'm the most experienced meditator in the world, but I've gone fairly deep. I'd argue that if you aren't getting into weird ego-dissolution experiences you are still meditating for comfort (which is totally okay! meditation is a great stress dissolver) and not moving towards the actual point of most meditative practices...but this also points to two things -- 1) meditation can't "cure" everything, sometimes you need a good therapist, or some chemicals, or some combination of the above 2) you absolutely must have a meditation teacher you trust if you want to do deep dives (yes, a 10 day vipassana retreat is certainly a deep dive, as is a zen sesshin). Preferably one you know has actually touched most of these spaces, is well grounded and compassionate, isn't woo-ey or ego-challenged in terms of feeling like your bad experience might threaten their "good teacher" status, etc.

MichaelGG 10y ago
I'd just note that the best "marketed" vipassana retreat, dhamma.org/Goenka is extremely woo-ey. Apart from simply false claims (eg cloud chambers we're always useless), the stated purpose of his practise is to excise "deeply rooted" problems so as to reincarnate better. This is in spite of them insisting it's a pure technique with zero dogma. I know that might not represent vipassana as a whole, just adding a warning since it's the most popular one.
- alimw 10y ago
  Exactly what claim are you disputing about cloud chambers? According to Wikipedia they were extremely useful to the discoverers of the positron, the muon and the kaon.
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    Sorry for being unclear. During Goenka's "discourses" he went off on many things. One of them being that cloud chambers were pointless as they only revealed things known to Buddha and Indian meditators for millennia. Yeah... That was just one thing out of many that put me off from those courses.
    - alimw 10y ago
      Agreed it does seem unlikely that one could observe fundamental particles by looking inwards. Probably best to understand his use of language from particle physics as analogy. I don't suppose old Goenka had much of an education in modern science, you could cut the guy some slack :)
- ylem 10y ago
  I'm a physicist and went to a number of Vipassana retreats. I also disagreed with the science comments and was fairly agnostic on the reincarnation comments. But, in Goenka's favor, he basically says, ignore all of the metaphysics and just see whether or not the technique works for you. Give it a fair try and if it doesn't work, don't use it. It wasn't about reincarnating better, but whether or not it offers you some benefit in this life. I really appreciated that attitude.
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    That's the marketing line: try and see. And that's the only reason I even went, as my woo-meter was off the chart. Except Goenka explicitly states the end goal, then goes on with a parable about how, if you don't accept it, you're like an ignorant child and will come around to his way of thinking. It 100% is about reincarnation; he makes this totally clear in his talk on day 3 (or thereabouts). What really put me over the edge though was his chanting. "For good vibrations". What made me think it was cult like was the number of people repeating things in dead languages. Additionally, he'd use manipulative techniques while speaking. Even though he was capable of speaking clearly, he'd intentionally lay on the accent, draw words out, repeat words over and over. This was laid even more clear I took a course in two languages. The translated version was quick and succinct. Like you say, he denies this. At one point he says a sentence like "we have no dogma, nothing to believe, just the universal truth" - with no trace of irony. Overall, between the woo and flat-out falsehoods, I found it very disingenuous. It certainly doesn't do meditation as a whole any benefit, just reinforces stereotypes. Which is a shame because some of the locations are superb, and the volunteers were extremely nice people.

MichaelGG 10y ago

I'd just note that the best "marketed" vipassana retreat, dhamma.org/Goenka is extremely woo-ey. Apart from simply false claims (eg cloud chambers we're always useless), the stated purpose of his practise is to excise "deeply rooted" problems so as to reincarnate better. This is in spite of them insisting it's a pure technique with zero dogma. I know that might not represent vipassana as a whole, just adding a warning since it's the most popular one.

alimw 10y ago
Exactly what claim are you disputing about cloud chambers? According to Wikipedia they were extremely useful to the discoverers of the positron, the muon and the kaon.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  Sorry for being unclear. During Goenka's "discourses" he went off on many things. One of them being that cloud chambers were pointless as they only revealed things known to Buddha and Indian meditators for millennia. Yeah... That was just one thing out of many that put me off from those courses.
  - alimw 10y ago
    Agreed it does seem unlikely that one could observe fundamental particles by looking inwards. Probably best to understand his use of language from particle physics as analogy. I don't suppose old Goenka had much of an education in modern science, you could cut the guy some slack :)
ylem 10y ago
I'm a physicist and went to a number of Vipassana retreats. I also disagreed with the science comments and was fairly agnostic on the reincarnation comments. But, in Goenka's favor, he basically says, ignore all of the metaphysics and just see whether or not the technique works for you. Give it a fair try and if it doesn't work, don't use it. It wasn't about reincarnating better, but whether or not it offers you some benefit in this life. I really appreciated that attitude.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  That's the marketing line: try and see. And that's the only reason I even went, as my woo-meter was off the chart. Except Goenka explicitly states the end goal, then goes on with a parable about how, if you don't accept it, you're like an ignorant child and will come around to his way of thinking. It 100% is about reincarnation; he makes this totally clear in his talk on day 3 (or thereabouts). What really put me over the edge though was his chanting. "For good vibrations". What made me think it was cult like was the number of people repeating things in dead languages. Additionally, he'd use manipulative techniques while speaking. Even though he was capable of speaking clearly, he'd intentionally lay on the accent, draw words out, repeat words over and over. This was laid even more clear I took a course in two languages. The translated version was quick and succinct. Like you say, he denies this. At one point he says a sentence like "we have no dogma, nothing to believe, just the universal truth" - with no trace of irony. Overall, between the woo and flat-out falsehoods, I found it very disingenuous. It certainly doesn't do meditation as a whole any benefit, just reinforces stereotypes. Which is a shame because some of the locations are superb, and the volunteers were extremely nice people.