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> "It looks like a Tekken expansion pack rather than a gamechanger." > "What else you got?" I have a feeling anything I can come up with you will call an expa

> "It looks like a Tekken expansion pack rather than a gamechanger." > "What else you got?" I have a feeling anything I can come up with you will call an expansion (or something along those lines) to an older game you liked. It's a cop out. For example, Tekken wasn't the first 3D fighter, Virtua Fighter came first, so you could say Tekken was a variation on Virtua Fighter rather than looking at it on its own merits. Do you see why this type of historical argument can rob games of their own merits? For example, Soul Calibur pioneered 8-way running in fighting games, previous games relied on sidesteps and other small movements, even the previous game in the series (Soul Edge, a.k.a. Soul Blade). However, this style of movement completely changes the dynamics of the gameplay. In other words, if you boil a game down to its basic appearance, you can miss the wood for the trees. To give another example of this, consider the party system in the Street Fighter 3 series (Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike is the most polished of this series, but the previous two had the same mechanic). This apparently simple change to Street Fighter radically changes the tactics available in game. On the surface it looks inconsequential, but instead it was the biggest change to Street Fighter gameplay since the invention of the combo. If you want some more trips down memory lane, look up Shenmue, Phantasy Star Online and Rez. A simple explanation of Shenmue is 'Virtua Fighter RPG', but again that misses the point of the experience. I believe Phantasy Star Online was the first ever online console RPG. Rez is a rails shooter, a lot of the pleasure comes from the way the sound and visuals are synchronised with each other.

nickpsecurity 10y ago
"I have a feeling anything I can come up with you will call an expansion (or something along those lines) to an older game you liked. It's a cop out. For example, Tekken wasn't the first 3D fighter, Virtua Fighter came first, so you could say Tekken was a variation on Virtua Fighter rather than looking at it on its own merits." Memory loss kicked in here: forgot Virtua Fighter's details since I didn't play it. Further research showed it wasn't just the first (knew that). It had all the key innovations in it that others, including Tekken, copied. So, Virtua Fighter is the game-changer or prime innovator here with Tekken's improvements how it went very mainstream. Soulcaliber improved on Tekken 2 to make it the first one with totally smooth experience. Correction accepted. :) EDIT: Another in this lineage, same company and year as Soulcalibur, was Ergheiz. It came out before or right with Soulcalibur on PSX limited hardware. It was a bit weird but quite unique. It had Final Fantasy characters on top of others, weapons, 3D environments, moving levels, use of environment as weapon MAYBE (memory...), upper floors, and movement all over. Also, RPG built into it from Square. Movement and blocking sucked. Really weird. 1st fight shows style & range of movement with 3rd showing multiplatform. Talk about ultra-3D. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSvLCDxvcrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSvLCDxvcrU "Soul Calibur pioneered 8-way running in fighting games" I gave it credit for that. This affect was already in other kinds of games, including my first one for PSX: WCW vs the World. You could run toward any corner or any rope (8 ways). Applying and enhancing something in other games to a new genre is clever. Definitely changed the dynamics a lot. It wasn't going from Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat to Virtua Fighter or Tekken. Or going from 2D wrestling matches with 4-way movement to WVWvW with 3D graphics and 8-way movement. See the difference? EDIT: Remembered Ergheiz after I wrote the above. So, maybe Soulcalibur pioneered multi-way movement and maybe other one did. You could run, jump, or fly about anywhere in Ehrgeiz just not as smooth mechanics. Soulcalibur improved on and mainstreamed it either way. Both were published by Namco. So, who knows on that. "consider the party system in the Street Fighter 3 series (Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike is the most polished of this series, but the previous two had the same mechanic). This apparently simple change to Street Fighter radically changes the tactics available in game. " I agree. That's a bigger one. Wrestling games, a variant of fighting games, had Tag Team matches going back to the Wrestlemania games in early 90's. They get the innovation there. It was also a distinctly wrestling concept, too, given you would get a WWF or WCW reply if you said "match where teams fight and you tag them in one at a time" to average person watching TV or playing games. So, you've listed two that came out of 3D and 2D wrestling games respectively. "I believe Phantasy Star Online was the first ever online console RPG." Diablo, which it drew on, is the prime innovator in that space. Consoles didn't have internet at all or worth a damn before Dreamcast. Nonetheless, you chose a great example here because nobody believed online RPG's were worth it on consoles. They both delivered one and got console gamers into the online service model. Plus expanded market huge for Diablo-like games into consoles. I give this one credit as a game-changer in its niche. Maybe in industry in general tying in consoles to online services. Baby steps toward Xbox Live and such, wouldn't you say? "Shenmue and Rez" Out of time for today given fair videos take time to dig up and watch. ;) They're on my list. I plan to get some vids on Phantasy Star, too, as I forgot the visuals. You got any others you heard were game-changing or way ahead of their time on Dreamcast?
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > ""consider the party system in the Street Fighter 3 series (Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike is the most polished of this series, but the previous two had the same mechanic). This apparently simple change to Street Fighter radically changes the tactics available in game. " I agree. That's a bigger one. Wrestling games, a variant of fighting games, had Tag Team matches going back to the Wrestlemania games in early 90's. They get the innovation there. It was also a distinctly wrestling concept, too, given you would get a WWF or WCW reply if you said "match where teams fight and you tag them in one at a time" to average person watching TV or playing games. So, you've listed two that came out of 3D and 2D wrestling games respectively." Sorry, this is a misunderstanding due to autocorrect on my phone. When I said party I meant parry. Here's a famous video showing the parry system at work, as you can see it has nothing to do with wrestling games. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzS96auqau0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzS96auqau0 Also, regarding 8-way run coming from wrestling games, they aren't the same mechanic. In early wrestling games you need to press a run button to run, and when you do your potential moveset changes. Furthermore, your run is not relative to the other player but rather relative to the ring. This all gives it a completely different feel. Lastly, Soul Calibur is not in the same lineage as Tekken. As I've already said, Soul Calibur was the sequel to Soul Edge. It's a completely different game series. >"You got any others you heard were game-changing or way ahead of their time on Dreamcast?" Before I answer that question, please answer this, do you know of any games that were game-changing or way ahead of their time on PlayStation 1?
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    "When I said party I meant parry. Here's a famous video showing the parry system at work, as you can see it has nothing to do with wrestling games." That was an awesome vid. The parry system did change the fighting game dynamic a lot. Wrestling games, including WCW vs World, had counter moves for various strikes and grapples. I don't recall them making opponent go backward to deliver arbitrary, normal move. So, SF3's parry's are either original or an enhancement on wrestling counters. Definitely innovative for that kind of audience. "Also, regarding 8-way run coming from wrestling games, they aren't the same mechanic. In early wrestling games you need to press a run button to run, and when you do your potential moveset changes. Furthermore, your run is not relative to the other player but rather relative to the ring. This all gives it a completely different feel." That is true. It's why I added Ehrgeiz whose movement makes Soulcalibur look really limited. Maybe I'm misremembering it, though. Look at link below. Scroll past character descriptions to section IV: "basic moves and fighting techniques." http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197216-ehrgeiz/faqs/4749 http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197216-ehrgeiz/faqs/4749 You'll see it had full, 8-way, arbitrary movement with 360 degree attack angles possible. Also crouching behind stuff in level, jumping on level, weapons, rolling, ground attacks, counters, tech hits, and instant 180's. It lacked the smooth flow and ease of use of Soulcalibur as players had to, a la Tekken, face the opponent's attack and direction precisely to counter it. So, you felt mastery when gameplay looked like a Soul game. "Lastly, Soul Calibur is not in the same lineage as Tekken. As I've already said, Soul Calibur was the sequel to Soul Edge. It's a completely different game series." The old making of soulcalibur writeup said the Tekken 2 team helped make it. It's why I thought it was a sequel to Tekken at first. The SC and TK2 team worked together on it. Presumably reused techniques in codebase from TK2 since they clearly weren't doing the artwork. That's speculation but SC was a team effort that included TK2 team. It's a joint lineage even if separate mechanics and artwork. Don't know why it bothers you as it's more like a good FOSS partly forks or works with another good FOSS to create a perfect-rated FOSS. I plan to replay it in future just cuz you had me look it up. "Before I answer that question, please answer this, do you know of any games that were game-changing or way ahead of their time on PlayStation 1?" Metal Gear Solid. Whole volumes written about playing in a movie, enemies' reactions to things, clever ploys by designers, stealth aspect... whole package. Landmark work that only a few tried (and failed) to copy. WCWvsWorld or WCWvsNWO. Came out same year with similar mechanics including 8-way movement (ring-based as you said), grappling system, counter moves, team matches, weapons from crowd, and so on. NWO probably the innovator here. No Mercy and others copied it. WWF Smackdown would later take 3D wrestling back to fast-moving, high-flying, crazy roots in arcade games. Then, PSX vs N64 debates re their various games were more accurately New PSX vs Old PSX styles but N64 people pled ignorance of WCWvNWO or WCWvW. ;) Twisted Metal. There's racing games. There's destruction games. There's 3D world games. This combined all three into what I guess was a new genre as people acted like they never saw it before. Final Fantasy VII. I never played others before it on console so can't say anything to mechanics. Yet, combo of deep story, character development, and custom, classical score matched to events in game made a powerful impression I had never encountered in another game. That combo seems unique, esp leveraging classical for emotional impact. So, it's a maybe but I'm not certain. Resident Evil. Characters, interesting plot, puzzles, unusual game mechanics, and scary kills pioneered survival horror genre in consoles. Sports. I recall Playstation had some of first, sports games like NBA that mimicked life-like stuff instead of arcade stuff. I'm not sure if it was first on this but it was first I saw that reminded me of real-life. Alright. There's a start. Feel free to accept or shoot them down with counterexamples.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

"I have a feeling anything I can come up with you will call an expansion (or something along those lines) to an older game you liked. It's a cop out. For example, Tekken wasn't the first 3D fighter, Virtua Fighter came first, so you could say Tekken was a variation on Virtua Fighter rather than looking at it on its own merits." Memory loss kicked in here: forgot Virtua Fighter's details since I didn't play it. Further research showed it wasn't just the first (knew that). It had all the key innovations in it that others, including Tekken, copied. So, Virtua Fighter is the game-changer or prime innovator here with Tekken's improvements how it went very mainstream. Soulcaliber improved on Tekken 2 to make it the first one with totally smooth experience. Correction accepted. :) EDIT: Another in this lineage, same company and year as Soulcalibur, was Ergheiz. It came out before or right with Soulcalibur on PSX limited hardware. It was a bit weird but quite unique. It had Final Fantasy characters on top of others, weapons, 3D environments, moving levels, use of environment as weapon MAYBE (memory...), upper floors, and movement all over. Also, RPG built into it from Square. Movement and blocking sucked. Really weird. 1st fight shows style & range of movement with 3rd showing multiplatform. Talk about ultra-3D. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSvLCDxvcrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSvLCDxvcrU "Soul Calibur pioneered 8-way running in fighting games" I gave it credit for that. This affect was already in other kinds of games, including my first one for PSX: WCW vs the World. You could run toward any corner or any rope (8 ways). Applying and enhancing something in other games to a new genre is clever. Definitely changed the dynamics a lot. It wasn't going from Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat to Virtua Fighter or Tekken. Or going from 2D wrestling matches with 4-way movement to WVWvW with 3D graphics and 8-way movement. See the difference? EDIT: Remembered Ergheiz after I wrote the above. So, maybe Soulcalibur pioneered multi-way movement and maybe other one did. You could run, jump, or fly about anywhere in Ehrgeiz just not as smooth mechanics. Soulcalibur improved on and mainstreamed it either way. Both were published by Namco. So, who knows on that. "consider the party system in the Street Fighter 3 series (Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike is the most polished of this series, but the previous two had the same mechanic). This apparently simple change to Street Fighter radically changes the tactics available in game. " I agree. That's a bigger one. Wrestling games, a variant of fighting games, had Tag Team matches going back to the Wrestlemania games in early 90's. They get the innovation there. It was also a distinctly wrestling concept, too, given you would get a WWF or WCW reply if you said "match where teams fight and you tag them in one at a time" to average person watching TV or playing games. So, you've listed two that came out of 3D and 2D wrestling games respectively. "I believe Phantasy Star Online was the first ever online console RPG." Diablo, which it drew on, is the prime innovator in that space. Consoles didn't have internet at all or worth a damn before Dreamcast. Nonetheless, you chose a great example here because nobody believed online RPG's were worth it on consoles. They both delivered one and got console gamers into the online service model. Plus expanded market huge for Diablo-like games into consoles. I give this one credit as a game-changer in its niche. Maybe in industry in general tying in consoles to online services. Baby steps toward Xbox Live and such, wouldn't you say? "Shenmue and Rez" Out of time for today given fair videos take time to dig up and watch. ;) They're on my list. I plan to get some vids on Phantasy Star, too, as I forgot the visuals. You got any others you heard were game-changing or way ahead of their time on Dreamcast?

ZenoArrow 10y ago
> ""consider the party system in the Street Fighter 3 series (Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike is the most polished of this series, but the previous two had the same mechanic). This apparently simple change to Street Fighter radically changes the tactics available in game. " I agree. That's a bigger one. Wrestling games, a variant of fighting games, had Tag Team matches going back to the Wrestlemania games in early 90's. They get the innovation there. It was also a distinctly wrestling concept, too, given you would get a WWF or WCW reply if you said "match where teams fight and you tag them in one at a time" to average person watching TV or playing games. So, you've listed two that came out of 3D and 2D wrestling games respectively." Sorry, this is a misunderstanding due to autocorrect on my phone. When I said party I meant parry. Here's a famous video showing the parry system at work, as you can see it has nothing to do with wrestling games. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzS96auqau0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzS96auqau0 Also, regarding 8-way run coming from wrestling games, they aren't the same mechanic. In early wrestling games you need to press a run button to run, and when you do your potential moveset changes. Furthermore, your run is not relative to the other player but rather relative to the ring. This all gives it a completely different feel. Lastly, Soul Calibur is not in the same lineage as Tekken. As I've already said, Soul Calibur was the sequel to Soul Edge. It's a completely different game series. >"You got any others you heard were game-changing or way ahead of their time on Dreamcast?" Before I answer that question, please answer this, do you know of any games that were game-changing or way ahead of their time on PlayStation 1?
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  "When I said party I meant parry. Here's a famous video showing the parry system at work, as you can see it has nothing to do with wrestling games." That was an awesome vid. The parry system did change the fighting game dynamic a lot. Wrestling games, including WCW vs World, had counter moves for various strikes and grapples. I don't recall them making opponent go backward to deliver arbitrary, normal move. So, SF3's parry's are either original or an enhancement on wrestling counters. Definitely innovative for that kind of audience. "Also, regarding 8-way run coming from wrestling games, they aren't the same mechanic. In early wrestling games you need to press a run button to run, and when you do your potential moveset changes. Furthermore, your run is not relative to the other player but rather relative to the ring. This all gives it a completely different feel." That is true. It's why I added Ehrgeiz whose movement makes Soulcalibur look really limited. Maybe I'm misremembering it, though. Look at link below. Scroll past character descriptions to section IV: "basic moves and fighting techniques." http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197216-ehrgeiz/faqs/4749 http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197216-ehrgeiz/faqs/4749 You'll see it had full, 8-way, arbitrary movement with 360 degree attack angles possible. Also crouching behind stuff in level, jumping on level, weapons, rolling, ground attacks, counters, tech hits, and instant 180's. It lacked the smooth flow and ease of use of Soulcalibur as players had to, a la Tekken, face the opponent's attack and direction precisely to counter it. So, you felt mastery when gameplay looked like a Soul game. "Lastly, Soul Calibur is not in the same lineage as Tekken. As I've already said, Soul Calibur was the sequel to Soul Edge. It's a completely different game series." The old making of soulcalibur writeup said the Tekken 2 team helped make it. It's why I thought it was a sequel to Tekken at first. The SC and TK2 team worked together on it. Presumably reused techniques in codebase from TK2 since they clearly weren't doing the artwork. That's speculation but SC was a team effort that included TK2 team. It's a joint lineage even if separate mechanics and artwork. Don't know why it bothers you as it's more like a good FOSS partly forks or works with another good FOSS to create a perfect-rated FOSS. I plan to replay it in future just cuz you had me look it up. "Before I answer that question, please answer this, do you know of any games that were game-changing or way ahead of their time on PlayStation 1?" Metal Gear Solid. Whole volumes written about playing in a movie, enemies' reactions to things, clever ploys by designers, stealth aspect... whole package. Landmark work that only a few tried (and failed) to copy. WCWvsWorld or WCWvsNWO. Came out same year with similar mechanics including 8-way movement (ring-based as you said), grappling system, counter moves, team matches, weapons from crowd, and so on. NWO probably the innovator here. No Mercy and others copied it. WWF Smackdown would later take 3D wrestling back to fast-moving, high-flying, crazy roots in arcade games. Then, PSX vs N64 debates re their various games were more accurately New PSX vs Old PSX styles but N64 people pled ignorance of WCWvNWO or WCWvW. ;) Twisted Metal. There's racing games. There's destruction games. There's 3D world games. This combined all three into what I guess was a new genre as people acted like they never saw it before. Final Fantasy VII. I never played others before it on console so can't say anything to mechanics. Yet, combo of deep story, character development, and custom, classical score matched to events in game made a powerful impression I had never encountered in another game. That combo seems unique, esp leveraging classical for emotional impact. So, it's a maybe but I'm not certain. Resident Evil. Characters, interesting plot, puzzles, unusual game mechanics, and scary kills pioneered survival horror genre in consoles. Sports. I recall Playstation had some of first, sports games like NBA that mimicked life-like stuff instead of arcade stuff. I'm not sure if it was first on this but it was first I saw that reminded me of real-life. Alright. There's a start. Feel free to accept or shoot them down with counterexamples.