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Thanks. I'll have to have a Say-Malthus day soon. I've always been fascinated by Malthus. Without Malthus I don't think you have a Darwin. I know he gets typed

Thanks. I'll have to have a Say-Malthus day soon. I've always been fascinated by Malthus. Without Malthus I don't think you have a Darwin. I know he gets typed as the doomsayer but there has always been something very elemental about his idea. I think it was the first time I encountered a simple concept that explained deeper patterns and so it stuck with me. > Who is that `we' that needs more or fewer humans? I'm trying with some difficulty to avoid value judgments e.g. we should or should not interfere in human reproduction patterns so that's a reasonable question. I think that 'We' is the information network. I don't mean the Internet or the price system. It's a broader idea that probably fits into ecology, something like the Noosphere. The premise is that there exists a lot of different states the network could be in. It could be in an optimal state or in a sub-optimal one. I'd guess that it's governed by something like Cybernetics but I'm confident we won't know most of the rules and certainly not the emergent consequences of the rules. To be less handwavy - the 'We' can be the union of the Economy and Ecology sets. It would take humans as being endogenous variables. I'm sure other people have thought of all this before, but it seems difficult to avoid metaphors that could suggest latent policy prescriptions e.g. Spaceship Earth (limited resources) or World System (global government).

eru 10y ago
Yes, Malthus was indeed an inspiration that got Darwin thinking. About your ethical problems: you could just go purely formal, and try to present your thoughts without any value judgement. Any prescription would be purely conditional like: - if you want to maximize this variable, you should do that. Lemin Wu has some great thoughts and simulations that round out Malthus. He's also interested in why ancient authors, especially Chinese, decry commerce and any economic activity that's not food producing: > For example, during the Warring Period of China (476-221BC), restraint on luxury was the theme of a series of political and economic reforms. In the face of constant nomadic harassment, King Wu-Ling of Zhao (340-295 BC) commanded his subordinates to take off their wide sleeves and long robes and switch to nomadic uniform—pants, belts and boots— in order to fight as cavalry. Half a century before King Wu-Ling, Shang Yang’s reform swept another kingdom, Qin. The reformer punished commerce, rewarded cultivation, forbade migration and restricted entertainment. In a word, he cut down luxury and directed as many resources as possible to subsistence. The subjects were deprived, but the Qin kingdom defeated all of the six rival kingdoms and united China for the first time in history. A contemporary philosopher commented, “Qin is different from all the other kingdoms. The people are poor and the government is cruel. Whoever hopes for a better life can do nothing but fight hard. This makes the Qin army the strongest of all." (from http://wulemin.weebly.com/uploads/1/4/6/2/14620598/jmp1110.pdf http://wulemin.weebly.com/uploads/1/4/6/2/14620598/jmp1110.p... available via http://wulemin.weebly.com/ http://wulemin.weebly.com/)
eru 10y ago
PS Happy to have a discussion via email. (Address is in my profile.)
- internaut 10y ago
  Thanks, that is good of you to offer, I'll let you know how I get on with my Malthus-Say Day once I've done some reading on the material. I get to these things sort of randomly but be sure it'll happen :-)

eru 10y ago

Yes, Malthus was indeed an inspiration that got Darwin thinking. About your ethical problems: you could just go purely formal, and try to present your thoughts without any value judgement. Any prescription would be purely conditional like: - if you want to maximize this variable, you should do that. Lemin Wu has some great thoughts and simulations that round out Malthus. He's also interested in why ancient authors, especially Chinese, decry commerce and any economic activity that's not food producing: > For example, during the Warring Period of China (476-221BC), restraint on luxury was the theme of a series of political and economic reforms. In the face of constant nomadic harassment, King Wu-Ling of Zhao (340-295 BC) commanded his subordinates to take off their wide sleeves and long robes and switch to nomadic uniform—pants, belts and boots— in order to fight as cavalry. Half a century before King Wu-Ling, Shang Yang’s reform swept another kingdom, Qin. The reformer punished commerce, rewarded cultivation, forbade migration and restricted entertainment. In a word, he cut down luxury and directed as many resources as possible to subsistence. The subjects were deprived, but the Qin kingdom defeated all of the six rival kingdoms and united China for the first time in history. A contemporary philosopher commented, “Qin is different from all the other kingdoms. The people are poor and the government is cruel. Whoever hopes for a better life can do nothing but fight hard. This makes the Qin army the strongest of all." (from http://wulemin.weebly.com/uploads/1/4/6/2/14620598/jmp1110.pdf http://wulemin.weebly.com/uploads/1/4/6/2/14620598/jmp1110.p... available via http://wulemin.weebly.com/ http://wulemin.weebly.com/)

eru 10y ago

PS Happy to have a discussion via email. (Address is in my profile.)

internaut 10y ago
Thanks, that is good of you to offer, I'll let you know how I get on with my Malthus-Say Day once I've done some reading on the material. I get to these things sort of randomly but be sure it'll happen :-)