5 ms·

I haven't tried either Oculus nor Vive, but Vive seems soooo much better from what ive seen so far ...

pen2l 10y ago
I don't have a horse in this race, but, is there any reason to believe Vive won't have DRM too? I mean... Steam is like the biggest DRM software ever made (although they've made it work well).
- emp_zealoth 10y ago
  To me Steam is the antithesis of DRM, to be honest (I am quite a bit of a fanboi though) It does so much things for me. I no longer have to worry about CD's or whatever. All my games are in one place, install pretty much as soon as I want (50mbit fiber), are always up to date, I never have to fiddle with goddamn keys - click install, wait a few minutes, click play and that's it! Some games have Steam Cloud, so my saves are there, my settings might be there too. And don't start me on Steam Overlay! I've got a few hundred friends, clock (THIS IS SO RIDDICULOUSLY NICE TO HAVE), a web browser. It does streaming. It does screenshots. It does remote desktop. Guides. It takes my issues and solves them for me. Maybe that is some Stockholm Syndrome. It's been years since I had any issues with Steam-as-DRM (Or just Steam, really) But fucking hell, look at uplay or origin or any other cancerware corporate trash that does nothing but fuck with you. I don't really see Steam/Volvo locking down VR. It appears that they provide an API for other hardware to work. (At least thats what cursory googling says!)
  - SquareWheel 10y ago
    Keep in mind that those value-added features (friends list, save syncing, etc) are all doable without the actual DRM component. In fact some games choose not to bundle SteamWorks DRM so their exes are not encrypted. GOG Galaxy[1] is an example of a client that is completely DRM-free, but still offers many of those features. I use Steam a lot and buy quite a lot of games from it, though I'd not consider it the antithesis of DRM. They do still use DRM - they just make it a better experience. [1] https://www.gog.com/galaxy https://www.gog.com/galaxy
- middle334 10y ago
  The Vive APIs are open. They're not connected to any Steam DRM (which I believe is optional -- and in any event, Valve doesn't nail developers down to exclusives; you're free to sell your games elsewhere, if you want). My guess is that Facebook's big advantage boils down to the sheer number of bodies they have available to make a platform, while Valve consists of a small team and a bunch of developers. Valve's non-management culture makes long-term focus hard. Facebook can mandate focus through their heirarchy. Also, the people at Facebook are not stupid; this is fixable if they take the right steps. They probably don't even have to do anything at all now; just ignore the issue and it will sink below the community's outrage threshold. But if I was a company stuck with an exclusive on the Oculus, I'd be screaming at Facebook for a pile of cash right about now. [I have the sense that the Oculus DRM change was decided by some PM-like person at Facebook with little experience in security, or PCs as a gaming platform, or the market in general. I'll bet there's an internal shitstorm at Facebook that's resulting in new orifices being drilled into certain persons. If they decide to double-down on the DRM or try shut down the software shim in question through legal posturing, then I will make popcorn].
- shazow 10y ago
  Which part of Steam is DRM? Any game you purchase and install through Steam works without Steam (unless it depends on SteamWorks, VAC, or any of the other Steam services). Basically any game you can buy from a "No DRM!" shop like GOG that also sells the same version on Steam will be equally DRM-free.
  - SquareWheel 10y ago
    From what I can tell the majority of games on Steam still use CEG (Custom Executable Generation) - the DRM aspect of Steamworks. Before the Greenlight-explosion, PCGamingWiki kept a pretty up-to-date list on titles that were DRM-free[1]. It was a small percentage of titles even then. Now it's hard to say in a post-Greenlight world just how many titles use CEG. We can largely extrapolate and assume it's similar numbers. Though because so many Greenlight titles are indie I'd guess it's actually a lower percentage. Still, I'd bet that most titles are still using CEG in some capacity. I'd like it if Valve made that information available on the store page pre-purchase, but unfortunately they don't. One side-note: GOG does have an advantage over Steam even when Steamworks DRM isn't used. That is that the installer file can be copied freely between machines. Steam doesn't allow this without an internet connection. So for archival purposes, the GOG version is much more "free". [1] http://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_on_Steam http://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_...
    - shazow 10y ago
      It seems there's a big conflation between DRM (things that actually restrict how you can use your digital goods) and per-customer builds (things that identify you as the owner but don't necessarily restrict usage, like watermarks). The way I understand it, CEG works by signing the binary to a specific Steam account for when Steam is used. It does not prevent any portability or introduce access control for when Steam is not used, right? That is, if I'm offline or just have a backup of the game install without Steam, CEG has no effect on me (assuming the game's integrations with Steamworks are not a requirement for the game to function). At least Valve/Gaben has gone on record on several occasions to say that the digital assets are structured in such a way that they'll continue to work even if Steam/Valve disappears (dies or what have you). It might have been a couple of years, but I'm assuming this is still true. Edit: Btw, just to be clear, I constantly rely on this functionality. I play tons of games that I buy on Steam while I'm offline (mostly during travel and such). If I needed to be online for my purchases to work, I wouldn't be using Steam anymore.
fryguy 10y ago
Most people say the Oculus Rift headset is much better than the Vive headset, but that the controllers for the Vive are much better since Oculus hasn't released Touch yet. Although people who have tried both have indicated the Touch controllers are better, at least for certain applications.
- Qworg 10y ago
  Uhm, anecdotes != data. I've heard that most people say the Vive is better than the Oculus by far.
  - frio 10y ago
    That remains an anecdote, as (anecdotally) I've heard the exact opposite ;).
  - ux-app 10y ago
    > Uhm, anecdotes != data. Which you then go on to counter with your own anecdote.

pen2l 10y ago

I don't have a horse in this race, but, is there any reason to believe Vive won't have DRM too? I mean... Steam is like the biggest DRM software ever made (although they've made it work well).

emp_zealoth 10y ago
To me Steam is the antithesis of DRM, to be honest (I am quite a bit of a fanboi though) It does so much things for me. I no longer have to worry about CD's or whatever. All my games are in one place, install pretty much as soon as I want (50mbit fiber), are always up to date, I never have to fiddle with goddamn keys - click install, wait a few minutes, click play and that's it! Some games have Steam Cloud, so my saves are there, my settings might be there too. And don't start me on Steam Overlay! I've got a few hundred friends, clock (THIS IS SO RIDDICULOUSLY NICE TO HAVE), a web browser. It does streaming. It does screenshots. It does remote desktop. Guides. It takes my issues and solves them for me. Maybe that is some Stockholm Syndrome. It's been years since I had any issues with Steam-as-DRM (Or just Steam, really) But fucking hell, look at uplay or origin or any other cancerware corporate trash that does nothing but fuck with you. I don't really see Steam/Volvo locking down VR. It appears that they provide an API for other hardware to work. (At least thats what cursory googling says!)
- SquareWheel 10y ago
  Keep in mind that those value-added features (friends list, save syncing, etc) are all doable without the actual DRM component. In fact some games choose not to bundle SteamWorks DRM so their exes are not encrypted. GOG Galaxy[1] is an example of a client that is completely DRM-free, but still offers many of those features. I use Steam a lot and buy quite a lot of games from it, though I'd not consider it the antithesis of DRM. They do still use DRM - they just make it a better experience. [1] https://www.gog.com/galaxy https://www.gog.com/galaxy
middle334 10y ago
The Vive APIs are open. They're not connected to any Steam DRM (which I believe is optional -- and in any event, Valve doesn't nail developers down to exclusives; you're free to sell your games elsewhere, if you want). My guess is that Facebook's big advantage boils down to the sheer number of bodies they have available to make a platform, while Valve consists of a small team and a bunch of developers. Valve's non-management culture makes long-term focus hard. Facebook can mandate focus through their heirarchy. Also, the people at Facebook are not stupid; this is fixable if they take the right steps. They probably don't even have to do anything at all now; just ignore the issue and it will sink below the community's outrage threshold. But if I was a company stuck with an exclusive on the Oculus, I'd be screaming at Facebook for a pile of cash right about now. [I have the sense that the Oculus DRM change was decided by some PM-like person at Facebook with little experience in security, or PCs as a gaming platform, or the market in general. I'll bet there's an internal shitstorm at Facebook that's resulting in new orifices being drilled into certain persons. If they decide to double-down on the DRM or try shut down the software shim in question through legal posturing, then I will make popcorn].
shazow 10y ago
Which part of Steam is DRM? Any game you purchase and install through Steam works without Steam (unless it depends on SteamWorks, VAC, or any of the other Steam services). Basically any game you can buy from a "No DRM!" shop like GOG that also sells the same version on Steam will be equally DRM-free.
- SquareWheel 10y ago
  From what I can tell the majority of games on Steam still use CEG (Custom Executable Generation) - the DRM aspect of Steamworks. Before the Greenlight-explosion, PCGamingWiki kept a pretty up-to-date list on titles that were DRM-free[1]. It was a small percentage of titles even then. Now it's hard to say in a post-Greenlight world just how many titles use CEG. We can largely extrapolate and assume it's similar numbers. Though because so many Greenlight titles are indie I'd guess it's actually a lower percentage. Still, I'd bet that most titles are still using CEG in some capacity. I'd like it if Valve made that information available on the store page pre-purchase, but unfortunately they don't. One side-note: GOG does have an advantage over Steam even when Steamworks DRM isn't used. That is that the installer file can be copied freely between machines. Steam doesn't allow this without an internet connection. So for archival purposes, the GOG version is much more "free". [1] http://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_on_Steam http://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_...
  - shazow 10y ago
    It seems there's a big conflation between DRM (things that actually restrict how you can use your digital goods) and per-customer builds (things that identify you as the owner but don't necessarily restrict usage, like watermarks). The way I understand it, CEG works by signing the binary to a specific Steam account for when Steam is used. It does not prevent any portability or introduce access control for when Steam is not used, right? That is, if I'm offline or just have a backup of the game install without Steam, CEG has no effect on me (assuming the game's integrations with Steamworks are not a requirement for the game to function). At least Valve/Gaben has gone on record on several occasions to say that the digital assets are structured in such a way that they'll continue to work even if Steam/Valve disappears (dies or what have you). It might have been a couple of years, but I'm assuming this is still true. Edit: Btw, just to be clear, I constantly rely on this functionality. I play tons of games that I buy on Steam while I'm offline (mostly during travel and such). If I needed to be online for my purchases to work, I wouldn't be using Steam anymore.

fryguy 10y ago

Most people say the Oculus Rift headset is much better than the Vive headset, but that the controllers for the Vive are much better since Oculus hasn't released Touch yet. Although people who have tried both have indicated the Touch controllers are better, at least for certain applications.

Qworg 10y ago
Uhm, anecdotes != data. I've heard that most people say the Vive is better than the Oculus by far.
- frio 10y ago
  That remains an anecdote, as (anecdotally) I've heard the exact opposite ;).
- ux-app 10y ago
  > Uhm, anecdotes != data. Which you then go on to counter with your own anecdote.