5 ms·

I read his Fired post, and still can't really seem to understand why he got fired. Anyone have a better read on his firing situation?

by eachro 10y ago

argonaut 10y ago
His writeup: https://zachholman.com/talk/firing-people https://zachholman.com/talk/firing-people We cannot know for sure whether it has anything to do with his firing (and he doesn't mention it in the writeup), but Julie Ann Horvath did accuse Zach of harassing her at GitHub.
- abalone 10y ago
  Writeup on that situation (but lacking any concrete specifics about Holman, it's important to note): http://www.dailydot.com/business/julie-ann-horvath-names-github-harassment/ http://www.dailydot.com/business/julie-ann-horvath-names-git...
- justinlardinois 10y ago
  The sibling to this comment links to an article about that. This is the first I've heard of the situation, but that article doesn't say anything about her accusing him of harassment. Rather, it says that the two of them were in a relationship at the time, and she accused him of being complicit by sharing information with her harassers and otherwise ignoring the issue. Regardless of what happened or didn't happen, his close association with her probably didn't help anything.
  - argonaut 10y ago
    The article (http://www.dailydot.com/business/julie-ann-horvath-names-github-harassment/ http://www.dailydot.com/business/julie-ann-horvath-names-git...) says: "complicit in the actions of both Tom and Theresa Preston-Werner and even admitted to plotting with Theresa Preston-Werner to get women at the company fired. He should be let go from GitHub and I regret being kind to him in previous interviews" Again, unsubstantiated, but if for example he was just mean but not harassing, that could explain the firing (while Github claiming no harassment occurred).
- starfire 10y ago
  I don't think this had anything to do with that incident, as Zach worked at GitHub for a long time (years?) after it happened. Here's an excerpt from GitHub's internal investigation which talks about the allegations other than those alleged against Tom Preston-Werner: > As to the remaining allegations, the investigation found no evidence of gender-based discrimination, harassment, retaliation, or abuse. https://github.com/blog/1823-results-of-the-github-investigation https://github.com/blog/1823-results-of-the-github-investiga...
  - argonaut 10y ago
    That's just the public report. It is perfectly consistent for a company to publicly say nothing wrong occurred, while quietly firing some of the few individuals involved. Personally, the sudden-ness and lack of reasons for firing lead me to suspect it was a reason. I realize this is unsubstantiated speculation on my part, so take this all with a grain of salt.
- dcposch 10y ago
  I think the new outrage culture is toxic. It's a really tight knit subculture with its own rules and a vicious ingroup/outgroup attitude. Like goths or old school hippies, they have a distinct way of dressing and signalling to each other that they belong: purple or pink hair, Twitter profiles that specify "he/him" or "she/her" even when it's obvious, using words like "mansplaining", etc -- Outrage culture is a kind of conspiracy theory: people who are into it see oppression and harassment everywhere, and cast themselves as victims. Here's a great explanation of the history and ideology of outrage culture: https://youtube.com/watch?v=cYpELqKZ02Q https://youtube.com/watch?v=cYpELqKZ02Q --- Github has been taken over by outrage culture. Check out this insane story from earlier this year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049067 * Leaked internal HR slides talking about how "white women" are often "part of the problem" * An employee casually mentioning to BusinessWeek that "it's hard to even interview white people" * One Github executive sending this flagrantly illegal tweet: http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/56b3d2f12e526555008b505e-791-385/danilo%20campos-tweet.png http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/56b3d2f12e526555008... Imagine the instant EEOC investigation if that tweet said "black, male" instead of "white, male". -- Anyway, Zach Holman is also a white male. I don't want to speculate on exactly what went down, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong that he was railroaded out of the company in the wake of the Julie Hovarth scandal. -- I don't in any way defend the most visible opponents of outrage culture -- rank bigots like r/RedPill, Trump enthusiasts, and so on. I just want to point out that outrage culture is, itself, bigoted and intolerant, just in a different way. I really respect Zach. I learned how to give better talks from his amazing ones. He was the face of Github to me and I wish him the best!
  - untog 10y ago
    > I think the new outrage culture is toxic. Agreed. > Outrage culture is a kind of conspiracy theory: people who are into it see oppression and harassment everywhere, and cast themselves as victims. Definitely. > Zach Holman is also a white male. I don't want to speculate on exactly what went down, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong that he was railroaded out of the company... Oh. It's almost like you forgot the last few paragraphs you wrote when you got to this point. Talk about conspiracy theory...

I read his Fired post, and still can't really seem to understand why he got fired. Anyone have a better read on his firing situation?

by eachro 10y ago

I read his Fired post, and still can't really seem to understand why he got fired. Anyone have a better read on his firing situation?

argonaut 10y ago

His writeup: https://zachholman.com/talk/firing-people https://zachholman.com/talk/firing-people We cannot know for sure whether it has anything to do with his firing (and he doesn't mention it in the writeup), but Julie Ann Horvath did accuse Zach of harassing her at GitHub.

abalone 10y ago
Writeup on that situation (but lacking any concrete specifics about Holman, it's important to note): http://www.dailydot.com/business/julie-ann-horvath-names-github-harassment/ http://www.dailydot.com/business/julie-ann-horvath-names-git...
justinlardinois 10y ago
The sibling to this comment links to an article about that. This is the first I've heard of the situation, but that article doesn't say anything about her accusing him of harassment. Rather, it says that the two of them were in a relationship at the time, and she accused him of being complicit by sharing information with her harassers and otherwise ignoring the issue. Regardless of what happened or didn't happen, his close association with her probably didn't help anything.
- argonaut 10y ago
  The article (http://www.dailydot.com/business/julie-ann-horvath-names-github-harassment/ http://www.dailydot.com/business/julie-ann-horvath-names-git...) says: "complicit in the actions of both Tom and Theresa Preston-Werner and even admitted to plotting with Theresa Preston-Werner to get women at the company fired. He should be let go from GitHub and I regret being kind to him in previous interviews" Again, unsubstantiated, but if for example he was just mean but not harassing, that could explain the firing (while Github claiming no harassment occurred).
starfire 10y ago
I don't think this had anything to do with that incident, as Zach worked at GitHub for a long time (years?) after it happened. Here's an excerpt from GitHub's internal investigation which talks about the allegations other than those alleged against Tom Preston-Werner: > As to the remaining allegations, the investigation found no evidence of gender-based discrimination, harassment, retaliation, or abuse. https://github.com/blog/1823-results-of-the-github-investigation https://github.com/blog/1823-results-of-the-github-investiga...
- argonaut 10y ago
  That's just the public report. It is perfectly consistent for a company to publicly say nothing wrong occurred, while quietly firing some of the few individuals involved. Personally, the sudden-ness and lack of reasons for firing lead me to suspect it was a reason. I realize this is unsubstantiated speculation on my part, so take this all with a grain of salt.
dcposch 10y ago
I think the new outrage culture is toxic. It's a really tight knit subculture with its own rules and a vicious ingroup/outgroup attitude. Like goths or old school hippies, they have a distinct way of dressing and signalling to each other that they belong: purple or pink hair, Twitter profiles that specify "he/him" or "she/her" even when it's obvious, using words like "mansplaining", etc -- Outrage culture is a kind of conspiracy theory: people who are into it see oppression and harassment everywhere, and cast themselves as victims. Here's a great explanation of the history and ideology of outrage culture: https://youtube.com/watch?v=cYpELqKZ02Q https://youtube.com/watch?v=cYpELqKZ02Q --- Github has been taken over by outrage culture. Check out this insane story from earlier this year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049067 * Leaked internal HR slides talking about how "white women" are often "part of the problem" * An employee casually mentioning to BusinessWeek that "it's hard to even interview white people" * One Github executive sending this flagrantly illegal tweet: http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/56b3d2f12e526555008b505e-791-385/danilo%20campos-tweet.png http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/56b3d2f12e526555008... Imagine the instant EEOC investigation if that tweet said "black, male" instead of "white, male". -- Anyway, Zach Holman is also a white male. I don't want to speculate on exactly what went down, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong that he was railroaded out of the company in the wake of the Julie Hovarth scandal. -- I don't in any way defend the most visible opponents of outrage culture -- rank bigots like r/RedPill, Trump enthusiasts, and so on. I just want to point out that outrage culture is, itself, bigoted and intolerant, just in a different way. I really respect Zach. I learned how to give better talks from his amazing ones. He was the face of Github to me and I wish him the best!
- untog 10y ago
  > I think the new outrage culture is toxic. Agreed. > Outrage culture is a kind of conspiracy theory: people who are into it see oppression and harassment everywhere, and cast themselves as victims. Definitely. > Zach Holman is also a white male. I don't want to speculate on exactly what went down, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong that he was railroaded out of the company... Oh. It's almost like you forgot the last few paragraphs you wrote when you got to this point. Talk about conspiracy theory...