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It's not JUST the education though. Holding a degree shows you're capable of following a schedule, arriving to predetermined places on time regularly, keeping y

It's not JUST the education though. Holding a degree shows you're capable of following a schedule, arriving to predetermined places on time regularly, keeping yourself relatively organized, receiving and completing assignments from authority, and are willing to work hard at things that aren't immediately obviously essential but you do them anyway.

vkou 10y ago
So does graduating high school... Or having a previous job where you got a good reference. Or passing a probationary period.
- FussyZeus 10y ago
  High school is mandatory though, and enforced via truancy laws. The only consequence to not showing up for college courses is wasting your (probably borrowed) money.
  - vkou 10y ago
    So is gainful employment - it's enforced via poverty, homelessness, and early death... Yet, just because most of us show up to work under duress, doesn't diminish the value of work experience.
steffan 10y ago
That used to be true in the case of a high school diploma as well. As a society, we've diluted the value of that to the extent that you need to see a 4-year degree to determine those things. Even a four-year degree seems to be diluted to the point that I wonder if we'll start require a Master's degree just to ensure someone is capable of reasonably correct written communication.
mulcahey 10y ago
> willing to work hard at things that aren't immediately obviously essential but you do them anyway. I view this as actually one of the biggest problems with current pedagogies and curriculum structures. They don't teach the why of things[1] and so students either are unmotivated because it seems meaningless to them, or the ones who follow blindly on faith, who think less for themselves, end up looking like the smart ones. But then maybe that's what some employers are looking for. As Musk puts it, they fail to teach to the problem instead of the tools.[2] [1] https://youtu.be/vDwzmJpI4io?t=35m2s https://youtu.be/vDwzmJpI4io?t=35m2s [2] https://youtu.be/3UxL-0--oQo?t=25m25s https://youtu.be/3UxL-0--oQo?t=25m25s
- FussyZeus 10y ago
  There is however a certain value to being capable of doing what you're told, even if you don't understand the why of everything right off the bat. As a business owner if I need certain things in a certain way from my management or employees, especially if it's just a personal preference or a certain way I do things, I don't give a shit if my management understands it as long as they do it. There's plenty of room for free thought in a good workplace but there are also certain things that don't need to be questioned because it's none of your business.
  - mulcahey 10y ago
    Sure but the "none of your business" argument doesn't really work in education. Secondly, in the work place, it's reasonable to assume the work you are doing is beneficial to the business, whereas with classes your work isn't helping anyone else, and might not even be helping you.
    - FussyZeus 10y ago
      Education is supposed to emulate the business world, ergo, for some things it does work. That's a flaw in the classes, not the system. The point of a formal education system is to prepare you for the business world; if it's not matching up in some way, then it's the fault of the institution or the educator, not the student or the business.

vkou 10y ago

So does graduating high school... Or having a previous job where you got a good reference. Or passing a probationary period.

FussyZeus 10y ago
High school is mandatory though, and enforced via truancy laws. The only consequence to not showing up for college courses is wasting your (probably borrowed) money.
- vkou 10y ago
  So is gainful employment - it's enforced via poverty, homelessness, and early death... Yet, just because most of us show up to work under duress, doesn't diminish the value of work experience.

steffan 10y ago

That used to be true in the case of a high school diploma as well. As a society, we've diluted the value of that to the extent that you need to see a 4-year degree to determine those things. Even a four-year degree seems to be diluted to the point that I wonder if we'll start require a Master's degree just to ensure someone is capable of reasonably correct written communication.

mulcahey 10y ago

> willing to work hard at things that aren't immediately obviously essential but you do them anyway. I view this as actually one of the biggest problems with current pedagogies and curriculum structures. They don't teach the why of things[1] and so students either are unmotivated because it seems meaningless to them, or the ones who follow blindly on faith, who think less for themselves, end up looking like the smart ones. But then maybe that's what some employers are looking for. As Musk puts it, they fail to teach to the problem instead of the tools.[2] [1] https://youtu.be/vDwzmJpI4io?t=35m2s https://youtu.be/vDwzmJpI4io?t=35m2s [2] https://youtu.be/3UxL-0--oQo?t=25m25s https://youtu.be/3UxL-0--oQo?t=25m25s

FussyZeus 10y ago
There is however a certain value to being capable of doing what you're told, even if you don't understand the why of everything right off the bat. As a business owner if I need certain things in a certain way from my management or employees, especially if it's just a personal preference or a certain way I do things, I don't give a shit if my management understands it as long as they do it. There's plenty of room for free thought in a good workplace but there are also certain things that don't need to be questioned because it's none of your business.
- mulcahey 10y ago
  Sure but the "none of your business" argument doesn't really work in education. Secondly, in the work place, it's reasonable to assume the work you are doing is beneficial to the business, whereas with classes your work isn't helping anyone else, and might not even be helping you.
  - FussyZeus 10y ago
    Education is supposed to emulate the business world, ergo, for some things it does work. That's a flaw in the classes, not the system. The point of a formal education system is to prepare you for the business world; if it's not matching up in some way, then it's the fault of the institution or the educator, not the student or the business.