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> The counter-point is that without something to sell, the sales people wouldn't make any money. > They don't make the company any money, they're middle-men. T

> The counter-point is that without something to sell, the sales people wouldn't make any money. > They don't make the company any money, they're middle-men. The value comes from the product. It is supposed to be a symbiotic relationship. Sales staff can't make money if they have nothing to sell, and engineers can't build product if they have no customers. The sales staff is just as critical as the product development staff for the company making money. Rare is the product that can sell itself.

DrJokepu 10y ago
In fact, a great way to increase your reputation as an engineer at your job is to talk to the top sales people at the company and help them improve the product in ways that will help them selling more. It will open up very interesting career options that are normally not available to most engineers.
joncrocks 10y ago
I agree, there's a balance. I don't personally think that sales people have no value. I think my point is that with sales people, there's usually actual numbers involved (that the salesperson has visibility of), which can help anchor perceived value. But it's still potentially hard to actually determine value.
beat 10y ago
Sales staff are out there, talking to customers. Since no product is truly complete, they are the best source of information about what customers actually want. Too many programmers are smugly crossing their arms, saying they know what's best for customers without ever talking to them. Programmers are generally far more responsible than sales people for poor product quality.
- jazzyk 10y ago
  True. But there are also many cases when sales people force the product development team to implement the most idiotic "feature", because "we think the client is ready to sign the check and this is really important to them". The bad side of commission-based compensation is that they want to close the sale, no matter how harmful (in the long term) it can be.
  - beat 10y ago
    The only thing "idiotic" about customer-requested features, especially on high-ticket items, is when they introduce excessive technical debt. This can come in the form of code instability, disrupting development schedules, etc. Features that do more harm than good to the product and the business. Beyond that, it's not idiotic. It's just stuff the programmers don't care about. Price you pay for getting a paycheck.
    - jazzyk 10y ago
      Not every request from the customer makes sense. “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” -- Henry Ford.
      - beat 10y ago
        That's where "excessive technical debt" comes into play. My spouse actually deals with this more than I do. She's a product owner/analyst in international e-commerce, a very deep subject/domain expert in a narrow field. Customers, not really understanding the complexities of the domain, ask for things that are often technically impossible, illegal, or self-destructive. But she's serving as a first line of defense for engineers, educating sales reps and customers (and executives) about the nature of their business, and what can/should/shouldn't be done.
jrs235 10y ago
This $5 Billion Software Company Has No Sales Staff Atlassian sold $320 million worth of business software last year without a single sales employee. Everyone else in the industry noticed. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-18/this-5-billion-software-company-has-no-sales-staff http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-18/this-5-bil...
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Good for them. How many other companies have tried the same thing and failed?
- strictnein 10y ago
  They have sales people. They just recycle this same story every year and get tons of press for it.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  A single anecdote disproves "rare"?
- thedaveoflife 10y ago
  Depends how you define "sales staff". They need to sell their product in order to make money and they certainly have employees who provide a conduit for customers to buy JIRA. Their sales costs are low, but maybe not having more sale people is negatively affecting revenue growth?

DrJokepu 10y ago

In fact, a great way to increase your reputation as an engineer at your job is to talk to the top sales people at the company and help them improve the product in ways that will help them selling more. It will open up very interesting career options that are normally not available to most engineers.

joncrocks 10y ago

I agree, there's a balance. I don't personally think that sales people have no value. I think my point is that with sales people, there's usually actual numbers involved (that the salesperson has visibility of), which can help anchor perceived value. But it's still potentially hard to actually determine value.

beat 10y ago

Sales staff are out there, talking to customers. Since no product is truly complete, they are the best source of information about what customers actually want. Too many programmers are smugly crossing their arms, saying they know what's best for customers without ever talking to them. Programmers are generally far more responsible than sales people for poor product quality.

jazzyk 10y ago
True. But there are also many cases when sales people force the product development team to implement the most idiotic "feature", because "we think the client is ready to sign the check and this is really important to them". The bad side of commission-based compensation is that they want to close the sale, no matter how harmful (in the long term) it can be.
- beat 10y ago
  The only thing "idiotic" about customer-requested features, especially on high-ticket items, is when they introduce excessive technical debt. This can come in the form of code instability, disrupting development schedules, etc. Features that do more harm than good to the product and the business. Beyond that, it's not idiotic. It's just stuff the programmers don't care about. Price you pay for getting a paycheck.
  - jazzyk 10y ago
    Not every request from the customer makes sense. “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” -- Henry Ford.
    - beat 10y ago
      That's where "excessive technical debt" comes into play. My spouse actually deals with this more than I do. She's a product owner/analyst in international e-commerce, a very deep subject/domain expert in a narrow field. Customers, not really understanding the complexities of the domain, ask for things that are often technically impossible, illegal, or self-destructive. But she's serving as a first line of defense for engineers, educating sales reps and customers (and executives) about the nature of their business, and what can/should/shouldn't be done.

jrs235 10y ago

This $5 Billion Software Company Has No Sales Staff Atlassian sold $320 million worth of business software last year without a single sales employee. Everyone else in the industry noticed. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-18/this-5-billion-software-company-has-no-sales-staff http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-18/this-5-bil...

st3v3r 10y ago
Good for them. How many other companies have tried the same thing and failed?
strictnein 10y ago
They have sales people. They just recycle this same story every year and get tons of press for it.
vonmoltke 10y ago
A single anecdote disproves "rare"?
thedaveoflife 10y ago
Depends how you define "sales staff". They need to sell their product in order to make money and they certainly have employees who provide a conduit for customers to buy JIRA. Their sales costs are low, but maybe not having more sale people is negatively affecting revenue growth?