6 ms·

The counter-point is that without something to sell, the sales people wouldn't make any money. They don't make the company any money, they're middle-men. The v

The counter-point is that without something to sell, the sales people wouldn't make any money. They don't make the company any money, they're middle-men. The value comes from the product. I would argue it's equally hard to objectively measure the value of a salesperson, but as there's already specific figures one can latch onto, it's easy to think it's easy.

arethuza 10y ago
"The counter-point is that without something to sell" Never met a salesperson who was deterred from selling something by the trivial detail that it doesn't actually exist. ;-)
- joncrocks 10y ago
  Heh, "But it could, theoretically exist right?"
- FireBeyond 10y ago
  "Sir, I promised the client that it would have Feature X, and the developers are refusing, saying it will take too long!"
- compactmani 10y ago
  This is consistent with my impression of how sales work. You sell a feature, product, capability, etc that won't be ready for at least 6 months (for example). Then you kindly encourage an engineer to build it.
vonmoltke 10y ago
> The counter-point is that without something to sell, the sales people wouldn't make any money. > They don't make the company any money, they're middle-men. The value comes from the product. It is supposed to be a symbiotic relationship. Sales staff can't make money if they have nothing to sell, and engineers can't build product if they have no customers. The sales staff is just as critical as the product development staff for the company making money. Rare is the product that can sell itself.
- DrJokepu 10y ago
  In fact, a great way to increase your reputation as an engineer at your job is to talk to the top sales people at the company and help them improve the product in ways that will help them selling more. It will open up very interesting career options that are normally not available to most engineers.
- joncrocks 10y ago
  I agree, there's a balance. I don't personally think that sales people have no value. I think my point is that with sales people, there's usually actual numbers involved (that the salesperson has visibility of), which can help anchor perceived value. But it's still potentially hard to actually determine value.
- beat 10y ago
  Sales staff are out there, talking to customers. Since no product is truly complete, they are the best source of information about what customers actually want. Too many programmers are smugly crossing their arms, saying they know what's best for customers without ever talking to them. Programmers are generally far more responsible than sales people for poor product quality.
  - jazzyk 10y ago
    True. But there are also many cases when sales people force the product development team to implement the most idiotic "feature", because "we think the client is ready to sign the check and this is really important to them". The bad side of commission-based compensation is that they want to close the sale, no matter how harmful (in the long term) it can be.
    - beat 10y ago
      The only thing "idiotic" about customer-requested features, especially on high-ticket items, is when they introduce excessive technical debt. This can come in the form of code instability, disrupting development schedules, etc. Features that do more harm than good to the product and the business. Beyond that, it's not idiotic. It's just stuff the programmers don't care about. Price you pay for getting a paycheck.
logfromblammo 10y ago
Supply and demand are two sides to the same coin. Sales and marketing generate demand. Engineering and manufacturing generates supply. Both must exist for a product to be meaningful in the market. The labor theory of value, you see, is bunk. The product is worth only what the buyer will pay for it. And much of the time, a salescritter can convince someone to pay so much more for a product above cost that the difference pays for the salesperson's work, and still leaves some left over for R&D, or other nice things. Don't get me wrong. I still hate smarmy, schmoozing salesfolk with the passion of one ten-thousandth of a sun. But they aren't entirely useless. They do add value to a company in their own right. It is as a value multiplier, though. There still has to be some value added before you can multiply it.

arethuza 10y ago

"The counter-point is that without something to sell" Never met a salesperson who was deterred from selling something by the trivial detail that it doesn't actually exist. ;-)

joncrocks 10y ago
Heh, "But it could, theoretically exist right?"
FireBeyond 10y ago
"Sir, I promised the client that it would have Feature X, and the developers are refusing, saying it will take too long!"
compactmani 10y ago
This is consistent with my impression of how sales work. You sell a feature, product, capability, etc that won't be ready for at least 6 months (for example). Then you kindly encourage an engineer to build it.

vonmoltke 10y ago

> The counter-point is that without something to sell, the sales people wouldn't make any money. > They don't make the company any money, they're middle-men. The value comes from the product. It is supposed to be a symbiotic relationship. Sales staff can't make money if they have nothing to sell, and engineers can't build product if they have no customers. The sales staff is just as critical as the product development staff for the company making money. Rare is the product that can sell itself.

DrJokepu 10y ago
In fact, a great way to increase your reputation as an engineer at your job is to talk to the top sales people at the company and help them improve the product in ways that will help them selling more. It will open up very interesting career options that are normally not available to most engineers.
joncrocks 10y ago
I agree, there's a balance. I don't personally think that sales people have no value. I think my point is that with sales people, there's usually actual numbers involved (that the salesperson has visibility of), which can help anchor perceived value. But it's still potentially hard to actually determine value.
beat 10y ago
Sales staff are out there, talking to customers. Since no product is truly complete, they are the best source of information about what customers actually want. Too many programmers are smugly crossing their arms, saying they know what's best for customers without ever talking to them. Programmers are generally far more responsible than sales people for poor product quality.
- jazzyk 10y ago
  True. But there are also many cases when sales people force the product development team to implement the most idiotic "feature", because "we think the client is ready to sign the check and this is really important to them". The bad side of commission-based compensation is that they want to close the sale, no matter how harmful (in the long term) it can be.
  - beat 10y ago
    The only thing "idiotic" about customer-requested features, especially on high-ticket items, is when they introduce excessive technical debt. This can come in the form of code instability, disrupting development schedules, etc. Features that do more harm than good to the product and the business. Beyond that, it's not idiotic. It's just stuff the programmers don't care about. Price you pay for getting a paycheck.

logfromblammo 10y ago

Supply and demand are two sides to the same coin. Sales and marketing generate demand. Engineering and manufacturing generates supply. Both must exist for a product to be meaningful in the market. The labor theory of value, you see, is bunk. The product is worth only what the buyer will pay for it. And much of the time, a salescritter can convince someone to pay so much more for a product above cost that the difference pays for the salesperson's work, and still leaves some left over for R&D, or other nice things. Don't get me wrong. I still hate smarmy, schmoozing salesfolk with the passion of one ten-thousandth of a sun. But they aren't entirely useless. They do add value to a company in their own right. It is as a value multiplier, though. There still has to be some value added before you can multiply it.