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You're not wrong. I've yet to hear any pro-exit talking point that isn't xenophobic, jingoistic, or at BEST just hopelessly misinformed economically. The fact

You're not wrong. I've yet to hear any pro-exit talking point that isn't xenophobic, jingoistic, or at BEST just hopelessly misinformed economically. The fact that the BNP and UKIP are solidly behind an exit should be a good indication that it's terrible. They are like a bellwether for awful ideas.

UK-AL 10y ago
Pro-immigration person here. Considering brexit. [0] http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave [1] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  That's a very smart summary of a lot of data but it's not supporting its conclusions very well - all it seems to be able to say is that increased globalization has had a massive economic impact worldwide. Well... yes. The rest of it is a bunch of "well, we'd likely have had a bunch of the good ideas we were forced into by EU membership anyway" which is shockingly optimistic when looking at 80s Thatcherite Britain, verging on naive. Throw in a couple more rather unconnected points that pretend to show significance (while just showing that the less-developed world is growing faster than the developed one. Which is... yeah, obvious, but also expected) The rest of it then swerves into dodgy anti-immigration territory. Which is odd for a "liberal" case. I agree with it that the Brexit plan is optimistic - but I think the article demonstrates exactly why that's a bad thing: because it's stupidly optimistic and convinces itself that everything will be perfectly awesome because they want it to be. Whereas the reality is that this is rarely the case. It's massive risk for little upside vs no real risk for a slightly reduced short-to-medium upside.
hardlianotion 10y ago
Then look out for some and test your notions. Decent arguments for leaving exist, and there are links on this page for the start of your search for good reasons.
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  Based on the "decent" arguments provided it appears I've already seen them. They aren't very good and verge on irresponsibly optimistic at best. Most are just - as I said - very poor and misunderstood economics. The "good" reasons so far have been basically shown to be mostly wishful thinking with very little actual upside and a LOT of risk. Personally I'd not like to play roulette with a country, I'll take slightly slower growth and stability, thanks.
oarsinsync 10y ago
> The fact that the BNP and UKIP are solidly behind an exit should be a good indication that it's terrible. While I'm absolutely not a supporter of the BNP or UKIP in any way, their endorsement of something doesn't automatically make it a bad idea. If it does, then what does it mean when both the Conservative party, as well as many high level US officials (the President, military generals, intelligence chiefs) all come out in favour of the UK staying in the EU? Does that not ring any alarm bells? EDIT: note, I am deliberately cherry picking the supporters to make the point. I'm aware they're not the only people in support of staying in the EU. Much like I'm sure the person I'm replying to is aware that the BNP and UKIP aren't the only people in favour of leaving, and has chosen them to make his point.
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  > their endorsement of something doesn't automatically make it a bad idea True, but it does heavily cast a massive amount of doubt upon it. At least adds evidence that a lot of the Pro reasons may be based on... less than sensible ideas.
Cypher 10y ago
Doesn't sound like you're getting a fair balance of the politics if its from the misinformed. I'd like to point out Boris is also behind the exit too.
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  Well.. yes, and if Boris is behind it then I'm quite happy to call it awful as well. The man is a tit.

UK-AL 10y ago

Pro-immigration person here. Considering brexit. [0] http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave [1] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution

abritinthebay 10y ago
That's a very smart summary of a lot of data but it's not supporting its conclusions very well - all it seems to be able to say is that increased globalization has had a massive economic impact worldwide. Well... yes. The rest of it is a bunch of "well, we'd likely have had a bunch of the good ideas we were forced into by EU membership anyway" which is shockingly optimistic when looking at 80s Thatcherite Britain, verging on naive. Throw in a couple more rather unconnected points that pretend to show significance (while just showing that the less-developed world is growing faster than the developed one. Which is... yeah, obvious, but also expected) The rest of it then swerves into dodgy anti-immigration territory. Which is odd for a "liberal" case. I agree with it that the Brexit plan is optimistic - but I think the article demonstrates exactly why that's a bad thing: because it's stupidly optimistic and convinces itself that everything will be perfectly awesome because they want it to be. Whereas the reality is that this is rarely the case. It's massive risk for little upside vs no real risk for a slightly reduced short-to-medium upside.

hardlianotion 10y ago

Then look out for some and test your notions. Decent arguments for leaving exist, and there are links on this page for the start of your search for good reasons.

abritinthebay 10y ago
Based on the "decent" arguments provided it appears I've already seen them. They aren't very good and verge on irresponsibly optimistic at best. Most are just - as I said - very poor and misunderstood economics. The "good" reasons so far have been basically shown to be mostly wishful thinking with very little actual upside and a LOT of risk. Personally I'd not like to play roulette with a country, I'll take slightly slower growth and stability, thanks.

oarsinsync 10y ago

> The fact that the BNP and UKIP are solidly behind an exit should be a good indication that it's terrible. While I'm absolutely not a supporter of the BNP or UKIP in any way, their endorsement of something doesn't automatically make it a bad idea. If it does, then what does it mean when both the Conservative party, as well as many high level US officials (the President, military generals, intelligence chiefs) all come out in favour of the UK staying in the EU? Does that not ring any alarm bells? EDIT: note, I am deliberately cherry picking the supporters to make the point. I'm aware they're not the only people in support of staying in the EU. Much like I'm sure the person I'm replying to is aware that the BNP and UKIP aren't the only people in favour of leaving, and has chosen them to make his point.

abritinthebay 10y ago
> their endorsement of something doesn't automatically make it a bad idea True, but it does heavily cast a massive amount of doubt upon it. At least adds evidence that a lot of the Pro reasons may be based on... less than sensible ideas.

Cypher 10y ago

Doesn't sound like you're getting a fair balance of the politics if its from the misinformed. I'd like to point out Boris is also behind the exit too.

abritinthebay 10y ago
Well.. yes, and if Boris is behind it then I'm quite happy to call it awful as well. The man is a tit.