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Lots of people agree with you. It's disappointing that we should vote out of fear and not optimism.

abritinthebay 10y ago
I'd go with vote informed- currently there's no information that backs a brexit being a good idea. Plenty against it however. So you say it's a "vote for optimism", and you're VERY right. Misplaced optimism, mind.
- timlyo 10y ago
  > currently there's no information that backs a brexit being a good idea. Plenty against it however. What are these points against it? I have no idea how to vote so far.
  - monk_e_boy 10y ago
    I honestly think it is too complex for anyone to really know what is best for the UK as a whole. For individuals I think it is easier, there are plenty of people who are directly effected by immigration (houses, high tax, NHS collapse, overcrowded schools etc) ... and there are plenty of other people for who the EU is great ... small businesses, farmers, um, loads of others. The EU cleans up our beaches, rivers. Make sure our food is fit to eat. Tons of other stuff.
  - abritinthebay 10y ago
    Lots. I mean.. LOTS. Here's a sample: * Better regulations. Yes, this can be handled locally, but at a large cost. * Lower prices of goods – the EU ‘Single Market’ for all member countries is a massive saving. Impossible outside of the EU. * Free movement. Citizens are free to move from one member country to another. This is actually a massive boon to both leisure and commerce. Impossible without the EU. * Creation of jobs - over 3.5 million jobs in the UK have been generated over the years. Not massive but the economic hit would be painful outside of the EU. * The Structural and Investment Funds. Places all over the UK (and the EU) have been redeveloped, had economic investments, and companies funded. This is just not scalable economically outside of the EU. * Louder voice – Britain isn't an Empire any more. It might be the 2nd largest economy in the EU (9th in the world) but without all the others it is a much smaller voice when it comes to agreements - plus it would have to negotiate agreements itself again. This is a surprisingly subtle one in terms of impact long term. * Workers protections – the European Working Time Directive for a start but lots of other protections for EU citizens exist. There are more, but this is a good example. Turns out btw that while EU membership costs the UK a bunch per person it actually more than makes up for it once you factor in a lot of the costs it has saved us as well.
    - durzagott 10y ago
      "It might be the 2nd largest economy in the EU (9th in the world)" Isn't it the 5th largest in the world? http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gdp.php http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gd...
      - abritinthebay 10y ago
        Depends on how it's calculated. It's 5th by Nominal GDP but 9th based on GDP Purchasing Power Parity.
- monk_e_boy 10y ago
  I dunno, with a Tory government staying in the EU is a good idea. If we had a Green and/or Left socialist government then voting out may be more progressive.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    I had exactly those thoughts too, but I've just watched this and it's changed my mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 We may have to wait a long time before we get this vote again, let's get out of the EU now then get our own house in order. I know it's not the ideal way to do it, but at the very least we will have restored more of our own democracy in the meantime.

I'd go with vote informed- currently there's no information that backs a brexit being a good idea. Plenty against it however. So you say it's a "vote for optimism", and you're VERY right. Misplaced optimism, mind.

timlyo 10y ago
> currently there's no information that backs a brexit being a good idea. Plenty against it however. What are these points against it? I have no idea how to vote so far.
- monk_e_boy 10y ago
  I honestly think it is too complex for anyone to really know what is best for the UK as a whole. For individuals I think it is easier, there are plenty of people who are directly effected by immigration (houses, high tax, NHS collapse, overcrowded schools etc) ... and there are plenty of other people for who the EU is great ... small businesses, farmers, um, loads of others. The EU cleans up our beaches, rivers. Make sure our food is fit to eat. Tons of other stuff.
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  Lots. I mean.. LOTS. Here's a sample: * Better regulations. Yes, this can be handled locally, but at a large cost. * Lower prices of goods – the EU ‘Single Market’ for all member countries is a massive saving. Impossible outside of the EU. * Free movement. Citizens are free to move from one member country to another. This is actually a massive boon to both leisure and commerce. Impossible without the EU. * Creation of jobs - over 3.5 million jobs in the UK have been generated over the years. Not massive but the economic hit would be painful outside of the EU. * The Structural and Investment Funds. Places all over the UK (and the EU) have been redeveloped, had economic investments, and companies funded. This is just not scalable economically outside of the EU. * Louder voice – Britain isn't an Empire any more. It might be the 2nd largest economy in the EU (9th in the world) but without all the others it is a much smaller voice when it comes to agreements - plus it would have to negotiate agreements itself again. This is a surprisingly subtle one in terms of impact long term. * Workers protections – the European Working Time Directive for a start but lots of other protections for EU citizens exist. There are more, but this is a good example. Turns out btw that while EU membership costs the UK a bunch per person it actually more than makes up for it once you factor in a lot of the costs it has saved us as well.
  - durzagott 10y ago
    "It might be the 2nd largest economy in the EU (9th in the world)" Isn't it the 5th largest in the world? http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gdp.php http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gd...
    - abritinthebay 10y ago
      Depends on how it's calculated. It's 5th by Nominal GDP but 9th based on GDP Purchasing Power Parity.
monk_e_boy 10y ago
I dunno, with a Tory government staying in the EU is a good idea. If we had a Green and/or Left socialist government then voting out may be more progressive.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  I had exactly those thoughts too, but I've just watched this and it's changed my mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 We may have to wait a long time before we get this vote again, let's get out of the EU now then get our own house in order. I know it's not the ideal way to do it, but at the very least we will have restored more of our own democracy in the meantime.