5 ms·

Employed with a side of startup

112 points by bhousel 17y ago

michael_dorfman 17y ago
"I work on my hobby only at home and on my own time; it is not in conflict with my employee agreement. I own it; [Company] has no ownership or rights to it." That may or may not be true, depending on the employee agreement. Many of the ones that I've seen give the corporation ownership rights to any software developed by the employee, even at home and on their own time. Check this before you start.
- mrkurt 17y ago
  Most states limit the reach of IP agreements. In Illinois, for instance, I was once presented with an employment agreement that included an IP clause like that. I looked into the law and found out that it wasn't enforceable in IL. I quite the job because I thought the people who sprung that on us were fucking loons. My current company (Condé Nast) has a shockingly fair IP agreement compared to other large corps.
migpwr 17y ago
Great bit from the article: "If they decide to sue, they get to look through your email records (it's called "discovery"). Then they have 100 emails you sent during work hours. You lose." Weird. I submitted this article but my submission has now disappeared and it's now on front page under bhousel? Probably just a coincidence?
- bhousel 17y ago
  Maybe we both submitted, but yours had a slightly different URL? I've noticed that when I click on links from a feed reader, it adds a bunch of params to the end of the URL. I always strip off the extra stuff and submit only the base URL.
  - migpwr 17y ago
    Yeah, maybe, but it's completely gone from my submissions list. No biggie. I think it's a great article and HN seems to agree. allenbrunson: That's definitely it. I didn't know it behaved that way. I'm a little disappointed that it wasn't something more sinister... muhahaha muhahaha!! Oh well. Good info. Thanks!
    - allenbrunson 17y ago
      sounds to me like you hit the dupe detector. if you submit a URL that has already been submitted, news.yc takes you to the previous submission and votes it up on your behalf.
- byrneseyeview 17y ago
  They get to look through your personal emails?
  - skmurphy 17y ago
    They can review any e-mail communication that was addressed to or from your corporate account. This is also true if they are sued by a third party.
  - apr 17y ago
    Sure, <quote> Under the law of the United States, civil discovery is wide-ranging and can involve any material which is relevant to the case... </quote> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law)
ErrantX 17y ago
One reason I love working for my current employer is he really cares not a jot about what we do on the side (and even if it leaches into the day job at times). Actually he'd even part funding a current pet project of mine :) It's at the point where I dont even have a contract any more because of the limitations it actually put on our relationship (note: not generally recommended - before everyone sprays tea/coffee on the keyboard) You just have to find out if your employer is going to be a douche or not - and if not then be open about what your up to.
- mattm 17y ago
  This becomes really apparent if you live in a country with a less-capable legal system. Contracts are basically meaningless. It's the people behind the contracts - and their character - that are more important. That is why if you try to do business in a place like China or Brazil, the hosts will take you out to dinner and events to get to know you first before talking business. This is even true in North America although you don't need to spend as much time getting to know someone as you have a little more safety.
johnrob 17y ago
"If they decide to sue, they get to look through your email records (it's called "discovery"). Then they have 100 emails you sent during work hours. You lose." The simple solution that PG has recommended in the past is to rewrite all the code. Does that protect you from the above?
- tptacek 17y ago
  No. You still invested your employers resources in your business.
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  IANAL, and I've never been in that position, but I would use a different language in rewriting. If you rewrite in the same language, a lot of your functions will look very similar, and that similarity might be enough to burn you. Changing languages, on the other hand, will enforce significant difference on your approach to the problem, and possibly improve it. (I have no idea how this would play out in court.) If nothing else, it's an excuse to learn a new language.
grellas 17y ago
I don't know how many hundreds of founders I have worked with over the years in Silicon Valley who began by moonlighting while working day jobs to get started. The process is normally pretty safe and, out of the hundreds of cases, I don't know of one that resulted in a lawsuit. On the other hand, since I also do litigation, I have witnessed a variety of these situations that have resulted in lawsuits and have occasionally defended them. What is the difference between the safe and the unsafe ones? The standard safe zone is well-known in the Valley: do the side activity strictly on your own time and without using company resources. Where people trip up: 1. Doing side activity that is related to the employer's current or anticipated business. 2. Failing to comply not so much with the terms of an employment agreement but rather with "company policies" that large employers will periodically require their employees to sign - policies that can require the employee to report all side activity and to sign a form affirmatively attesting either that there is none or explaining what it is. (If you lie on this, you get in trouble). 3. Crossing the line in violating fiduciary obligations that an employee has to ensure that all activity for which the employee is compensated is done strictly for the benefit of the employer. The really critical area tends to be the last point. I don't know how many times over the years that I have seen founders get tempted to want to: (i) steer current customers of their employer in the direction of their side venture; (ii) sign up key customer or supplier contacts of their employer as "advisors" for their side venture; (iii) talk to co-employees about joining their side venture; and (iv) the worst temptation of all (but thankfully rarely done) use an inside contact at their employer's business (or use their own position) to steer project work toward the side venture. The simple rule is to play it straight. Avoid conflicts. Make sure any IP you generate in your side venture has no material connection with your employer's business. And then follow the standard rules (own time, own resources). If you do these things, you will normally not incur any significant risk from moonlighting. (Of course, check with a good lawyer in your local area on details for your particular situation).
- starkfist 17y ago
  It also depends on where you are located. Silicon Valley is a special case and California has laws that are more favorable to employees and the individual. Places like New York Texas do not, and you have to be much more careful.
zavulon 17y ago
I disagree with most of his advice. I really doubt you'll be able to quit your job and get anywhere with your business if you follow it. I don't really want to get into details for obvious reasons, but when I worked on my business on a side last year, let's just say I wasn't following the advice in this article, and I glad I didn't. If I did, I would still be working for "the man" and hating my life. Everything in life takes balls. Decide what's important for you, and go for it, fuck everything else. You've gotta have the attitude that your business is #1, and the corporation just doesn't really matter that much. Again, I can't post that many details, but pretty much reverse most points from this post and you'll have a good idea of what to do.
- tptacek 17y ago
  The logic you've employed here works for stealing cars, too. If cars are really important to you.
  - zavulon 17y ago
    Ok, maybe I should be more careful, what I wrote could definitely be misconstrued as that. Obviously I'm not saying to do anything illegal. But - telling your employer in advance that you're working on your own project? Really? What's the advantage in it? What you do in your off time is 100% yours [unless you signed something that says it's not], and letting your employer know about it will not bring you any additional benefits. On the other hand, the disadvantages are huge - everybody will start mistrusting you, knowing that you're looking for a way out, you'll never get promoted, etc. And that's just one point.. Not doing business phone calls in the day hours? C'mon, how realistic is that? How is anybody going to take you seriously if you don't pick up your phone during the day? Instead, you should FIND time during the day for important business-related phone calls. When I was employed, I always ate lunch at my desk in about ten minutes. At lunch hour, I found a nice quiet place in a plaza 2 minutes from the office, brought a notebook to take notes, and made 2-5 business calls. My point is, while you should definitely not do anything illegal, if your #1 goal is to quit your job and make your business your primary source of income, you should find creative ways to reach that goal, and stop at NOTHING before you do that.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
nfriedly 17y ago
3. You can't afford to hire three developers to add features and bugs. I got a kick out of that one - Everybody know that only big businesses can afford to hire developers to add bugs.
- smartbear 17y ago
  Awesome, I'm glad you got that joke! I don't think anyone else mentioned it. :-) I've seen studies too on things like "Developer Productivity" or other such crud where they didn't even measure stuff like "new functionality added" but ONLY "how many bugs were injected."
vl 17y ago
There is interesting story about moonlighting at Microsoft. For many years Microsoft required employees with side projects to submit and get approved moonlighting request. The problem was that it was not easy to get approved for start-up-like projects: neither management nor legal didn't want to take responsibility and were pushing requests back and forth for months. Finally, in the beginning of 2006, some brilliant legal head solved the issue once and for all: they removed approving process entirely and released set of guidelines you have to use _yourserf_ to determine if there is conflict of interest. So in one simple move they not only reduced amount of work legal department has to do, but also reduced possibility that employees would choose to create start up by pushing everyone in gray area and keeping door open for later litigation threat. BTW, if you have day job you want to incorporate early so you can do proper assignment of invention related to your start up (in addition to incorporating for liability reasons).
FreeRadical 17y ago
Does anyone have any insights into how Google handles this? What approach they take?

112 points by bhousel 17y ago

"I work on my hobby only at home and on my own time; it is not in conflict with my employee agreement. I own it; [Company] has no ownership or rights to it." That may or may not be true, depending on the employee agreement. Many of the ones that I've seen give the corporation ownership rights to any software developed by the employee, even at home and on their own time. Check this before you start.

mrkurt 17y ago
Most states limit the reach of IP agreements. In Illinois, for instance, I was once presented with an employment agreement that included an IP clause like that. I looked into the law and found out that it wasn't enforceable in IL. I quite the job because I thought the people who sprung that on us were fucking loons. My current company (Condé Nast) has a shockingly fair IP agreement compared to other large corps.

migpwr 17y ago

Great bit from the article: "If they decide to sue, they get to look through your email records (it's called "discovery"). Then they have 100 emails you sent during work hours. You lose." Weird. I submitted this article but my submission has now disappeared and it's now on front page under bhousel? Probably just a coincidence?

bhousel 17y ago
Maybe we both submitted, but yours had a slightly different URL? I've noticed that when I click on links from a feed reader, it adds a bunch of params to the end of the URL. I always strip off the extra stuff and submit only the base URL.
- migpwr 17y ago
  Yeah, maybe, but it's completely gone from my submissions list. No biggie. I think it's a great article and HN seems to agree. allenbrunson: That's definitely it. I didn't know it behaved that way. I'm a little disappointed that it wasn't something more sinister... muhahaha muhahaha!! Oh well. Good info. Thanks!
  - allenbrunson 17y ago
    sounds to me like you hit the dupe detector. if you submit a URL that has already been submitted, news.yc takes you to the previous submission and votes it up on your behalf.
byrneseyeview 17y ago
They get to look through your personal emails?
- skmurphy 17y ago
  They can review any e-mail communication that was addressed to or from your corporate account. This is also true if they are sued by a third party.
- apr 17y ago
  Sure, <quote> Under the law of the United States, civil discovery is wide-ranging and can involve any material which is relevant to the case... </quote> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law)

ErrantX 17y ago

One reason I love working for my current employer is he really cares not a jot about what we do on the side (and even if it leaches into the day job at times). Actually he'd even part funding a current pet project of mine :) It's at the point where I dont even have a contract any more because of the limitations it actually put on our relationship (note: not generally recommended - before everyone sprays tea/coffee on the keyboard) You just have to find out if your employer is going to be a douche or not - and if not then be open about what your up to.

mattm 17y ago
This becomes really apparent if you live in a country with a less-capable legal system. Contracts are basically meaningless. It's the people behind the contracts - and their character - that are more important. That is why if you try to do business in a place like China or Brazil, the hosts will take you out to dinner and events to get to know you first before talking business. This is even true in North America although you don't need to spend as much time getting to know someone as you have a little more safety.

johnrob 17y ago

"If they decide to sue, they get to look through your email records (it's called "discovery"). Then they have 100 emails you sent during work hours. You lose." The simple solution that PG has recommended in the past is to rewrite all the code. Does that protect you from the above?

tptacek 17y ago
No. You still invested your employers resources in your business.
pw0ncakes 17y ago
IANAL, and I've never been in that position, but I would use a different language in rewriting. If you rewrite in the same language, a lot of your functions will look very similar, and that similarity might be enough to burn you. Changing languages, on the other hand, will enforce significant difference on your approach to the problem, and possibly improve it. (I have no idea how this would play out in court.) If nothing else, it's an excuse to learn a new language.

grellas 17y ago

I don't know how many hundreds of founders I have worked with over the years in Silicon Valley who began by moonlighting while working day jobs to get started. The process is normally pretty safe and, out of the hundreds of cases, I don't know of one that resulted in a lawsuit. On the other hand, since I also do litigation, I have witnessed a variety of these situations that have resulted in lawsuits and have occasionally defended them. What is the difference between the safe and the unsafe ones? The standard safe zone is well-known in the Valley: do the side activity strictly on your own time and without using company resources. Where people trip up: 1. Doing side activity that is related to the employer's current or anticipated business. 2. Failing to comply not so much with the terms of an employment agreement but rather with "company policies" that large employers will periodically require their employees to sign - policies that can require the employee to report all side activity and to sign a form affirmatively attesting either that there is none or explaining what it is. (If you lie on this, you get in trouble). 3. Crossing the line in violating fiduciary obligations that an employee has to ensure that all activity for which the employee is compensated is done strictly for the benefit of the employer. The really critical area tends to be the last point. I don't know how many times over the years that I have seen founders get tempted to want to: (i) steer current customers of their employer in the direction of their side venture; (ii) sign up key customer or supplier contacts of their employer as "advisors" for their side venture; (iii) talk to co-employees about joining their side venture; and (iv) the worst temptation of all (but thankfully rarely done) use an inside contact at their employer's business (or use their own position) to steer project work toward the side venture. The simple rule is to play it straight. Avoid conflicts. Make sure any IP you generate in your side venture has no material connection with your employer's business. And then follow the standard rules (own time, own resources). If you do these things, you will normally not incur any significant risk from moonlighting. (Of course, check with a good lawyer in your local area on details for your particular situation).

starkfist 17y ago
It also depends on where you are located. Silicon Valley is a special case and California has laws that are more favorable to employees and the individual. Places like New York Texas do not, and you have to be much more careful.

zavulon 17y ago

I disagree with most of his advice. I really doubt you'll be able to quit your job and get anywhere with your business if you follow it. I don't really want to get into details for obvious reasons, but when I worked on my business on a side last year, let's just say I wasn't following the advice in this article, and I glad I didn't. If I did, I would still be working for "the man" and hating my life. Everything in life takes balls. Decide what's important for you, and go for it, fuck everything else. You've gotta have the attitude that your business is #1, and the corporation just doesn't really matter that much. Again, I can't post that many details, but pretty much reverse most points from this post and you'll have a good idea of what to do.

tptacek 17y ago
The logic you've employed here works for stealing cars, too. If cars are really important to you.
- zavulon 17y ago
  Ok, maybe I should be more careful, what I wrote could definitely be misconstrued as that. Obviously I'm not saying to do anything illegal. But - telling your employer in advance that you're working on your own project? Really? What's the advantage in it? What you do in your off time is 100% yours [unless you signed something that says it's not], and letting your employer know about it will not bring you any additional benefits. On the other hand, the disadvantages are huge - everybody will start mistrusting you, knowing that you're looking for a way out, you'll never get promoted, etc. And that's just one point.. Not doing business phone calls in the day hours? C'mon, how realistic is that? How is anybody going to take you seriously if you don't pick up your phone during the day? Instead, you should FIND time during the day for important business-related phone calls. When I was employed, I always ate lunch at my desk in about ten minutes. At lunch hour, I found a nice quiet place in a plaza 2 minutes from the office, brought a notebook to take notes, and made 2-5 business calls. My point is, while you should definitely not do anything illegal, if your #1 goal is to quit your job and make your business your primary source of income, you should find creative ways to reach that goal, and stop at NOTHING before you do that.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

nfriedly 17y ago

3. You can't afford to hire three developers to add features and bugs. I got a kick out of that one - Everybody know that only big businesses can afford to hire developers to add bugs.

smartbear 17y ago
Awesome, I'm glad you got that joke! I don't think anyone else mentioned it. :-) I've seen studies too on things like "Developer Productivity" or other such crud where they didn't even measure stuff like "new functionality added" but ONLY "how many bugs were injected."

vl 17y ago

There is interesting story about moonlighting at Microsoft. For many years Microsoft required employees with side projects to submit and get approved moonlighting request. The problem was that it was not easy to get approved for start-up-like projects: neither management nor legal didn't want to take responsibility and were pushing requests back and forth for months. Finally, in the beginning of 2006, some brilliant legal head solved the issue once and for all: they removed approving process entirely and released set of guidelines you have to use _yourserf_ to determine if there is conflict of interest. So in one simple move they not only reduced amount of work legal department has to do, but also reduced possibility that employees would choose to create start up by pushing everyone in gray area and keeping door open for later litigation threat. BTW, if you have day job you want to incorporate early so you can do proper assignment of invention related to your start up (in addition to incorporating for liability reasons).

FreeRadical 17y ago

Does anyone have any insights into how Google handles this? What approach they take?