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‘Brexit’: The Vote That Could Sink Britain's Economy

34 points by applecore 10y ago

hardlianotion 10y ago
I live in the UK. I am an internationalist, believe in free trade, good governance and keen supporter of human rights. I also believe in self-determination and will vote for UK leaving the EU when the time comes. I think the EU is undemocratic, deeply flawed and probably not reformable. Because of its size, these flaws matter in a crisis. Balkans, Euro, Ukraine, refugees - EU response to each has been ridiculous and dangerous.
- rtpg 10y ago
  At least for the Euro crisis, the main issue is not enough integration, not too much. Though honestly I can understand not wanting to give control of your budget over to Germany...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- onemorebrowser 10y ago
  Consider the alternative to the EU's 'flawed and dangerous' response to the Balkans, etc - 28 individual responses which take no consideration of each other and cumulatively achieve nothing. Some bureaucracy, organisational headaches (and yes of course, allowing those evil men in Brussles to tell us how straight our carrots can be) are a small price to pay for getting stuff done in our closely connected continent. Taking the moral high ground with the 'undemocratic' argument gets you nowhere really. Britain has an unelected house of Parliament and many, many more historical oddities all of its own which are deeply undemocratic. All you end up with is 'our brand of undemocracy is better than your dirty foreign one', and yes I'm aware that this is an oversimplification of sovereignty, etc, etc.
- flexie 10y ago
  The EU is not democratic enough and does not have sufficient military power. But Britain is too small and weak to ever again become a unit regulating itself. Too much is cross border nowadays and probably also was back in the 1700s and 1800s when the notion of sovereign nation state flourished. The UK, like all other small and medium sized countries, is not a unit in itself in terms of any of the issues that a nation state would normally (pretend to) govern: - Economy; You import most of what you consume and much of what you produce is exported. - Tariffs; If you were to unilaterally increase tariffs, other countries would punish you the same way. - Language; Your language is a mixture of Germanic, Old Norse, French, Latin etc. - Education and research: You have imported most of what you learn, at any level of the educational system, and you export most of your valuable research. - Demographics; you are a diverse society. Quite many British people go abroad to work or study and many British are first, second or third generation immigrants. - Military; You depend on the good will and alliances of your neighbors and the US. Contrary to most other European states, you did manage to continue to function as a nation during WW2 but were it not for the Americans and the Russians, you would have lost to the Germans. The whole notion of military sovereignty for small countries is ridiculous. It's like a small dog barking at a bigger dog (I'm Danish, so I don't mean it as an offence). I could go on. No matter what the issue is, the solution is International. The UK, and any other European country, benefits from the EU. The UK with its financial industry, dependence of foreign labour and dependence of export more than most. The reason we all speak English here on HN is British colonialism. That was the preferred way to regulate and govern international relations back in the heydays of nation states. I prefer voluntary cooperation like the EU. A stronger, bigger and more democratic union, but a union.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > " But Britain is too small and weak to ever again become a unit regulating itself." With all due respect, the UK has the 5th largest economy in the world. Countries with weaker economies than the UK manage just fine on their own. The question isn't whether the UK can or can't do it, but rather whether we should.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  With regards to free trade, can you explain what you mean by this? This is a genuine question. Free trade seems to me to be a somewhat nebulous term, stretched to serve a wide range of economic approaches, and I'd be interested in getting a better sense of clarity.
  - hardlianotion 10y ago
    The effort to make trading relationships between people easy and not exploitative, the intent of making all parties richer. Obvious examples include removing tariffs, harmonising standards and law where this is possible and agreeing procedures for conflict resolution.
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      I see. In that case, are free trade and free trade agreements always the same thing? For example, if two countries strike up a free trade deal that protects the agriculture industries of those countries, do they do so in order to protect themselves from competition from other countries?
      - hardlianotion 10y ago
        Seems clear to me that they are not. Same for many other ideals when compared with what is actually done in practice.
SeanDav 10y ago
What has been driving me crazy, is the sheer, utter guesswork - from both sides. No one can predict the future. Both sides are making predictions and both sides are just guessing. Meanwhile the real issues are not being discussed or debated in any kind of sensible manner. The UK is spending around 350 GBP million a week (minus some small amount they get back in rebates from the EU) on supporting the EU and have no control on millions of migrants coming into the UK to benefit from its completely free NHS medical system, (even breast implants for cosmetic purposes are allowed in some cases), free schooling, very high minimum wage laws and extremely generous benefits system (including free housing). These system are now at breaking point and there is no end in sight to the ever increasing load on the system. Meanwhile, the politicians sling mud at each other...
- kjjw 10y ago
  I heard the Daily Mail is looking for staff.
- switch007 10y ago
  "minus some small amount they get back in rebates". The rebate is actually a discount: we do not send the money then get it back. With the rebate, we pay around £250m/week (still a lot of money) https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million...
- DanBC 10y ago
  > (minus some small amount they get back in rebates from the EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate > Based on a net contribution of €12.1 billion (£9.8 billion) in 2014, the UK Treasury estimates the 2015 rebate amounted to €6.2 billion (£4.9 billion) That doesn't sound like a small rebate. Even the wingnut Daily Mail says > In total since 1979, Britain has paid in about €260 billion (£228 billion). It has received back in benefits just €163 billion (£143 billion). This rebate is only counting direct payments from EU (for farm subsidies, or to fund research), and ignores other benefits we get from EU.
wapapaloobop 10y ago
The world and its economies become less and less predictable the faster technology advances and so, for me, it's political considerations that matter. I don't want political integration with continental Europe. We have separate languages and separate traditions, which are valuable. The English Channel (a 20 mile wide body of sea) gave England the scope to develop more freedoms together with a unique outlook, which are now under threat. The rest of the world loses out too if they disappear.
- napworth 10y ago
  > unique outlook I don't believe you. England's outlook is one of the most dismal I have seen from all the countries in the world.
  - hardlianotion 10y ago
    I like England. What is it about the country and its 50 million inhabitants distinguish it in such a dismal way from other countries?
  - wapapaloobop 10y ago
    One can see differences in specific laws and legal traditions. But it's the outlook (inexplicit conception of freedom) that develops first and which is responsible for further progress. It's not possible to appreciate in depth the different outlooks of different national cultures. If it were then they wouldn't be as precious as they are.
wsc981 10y ago
This fear mongering has got to stop. It might just as likely boost the economy of the UK. And it certainly would assure the people of sovereignty, something the UK would lose if it would further integrate with the EU. Just look at my country, Holland. Pretty much all important decisions are made by the EU. An example: we cannot control our own borders. We cannot decide how many immigrants we want to allow. The EU wants to force quotas on countries and if they don't accept the quotas, they want to give the countries fines. The EU is undemocratic and if one values freedom, one should stay as far away from the EU as possible, even if it would be at some cost of the economy (though I'd say this is speculation).
- actionwords 10y ago
  you want to control your own borders and say who and who not can become Dutch? That sounds awful [buzzword] of you. You don't want people to think you're a [buzzword], do you? Support EU. Don't be a [buzzword]. National sovereignty is overrated anyway.
- Gys 10y ago
  > It might just as likely boost the economy of the UK. Pure assumption on your side or can you support this with sources ? > We cannot control our own borders. We cannot decide how many immigrants we want to allow. Seems to me much of this sentiment about leaving the EU is merely fear for being overrun by non-natives. Talking about 'This fear mongering has got to stop'...
  - abritinthebay 10y ago
    You're not wrong. I've yet to hear any pro-exit talking point that isn't xenophobic, jingoistic, or at BEST just hopelessly misinformed economically. The fact that the BNP and UKIP are solidly behind an exit should be a good indication that it's terrible. They are like a bellwether for awful ideas.
    - UK-AL 10y ago
      Pro-immigration person here. Considering brexit. [0] http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave [1] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution
vegancap 10y ago
Could, but most likely won't. It will however most likely do the exact opposite, if our government makes the rights calls in terms of international trade. If we leave, to become more global. I.e free trade deals with China, India, Brazil, the English speaking commonwealth, whom share much of our laws and ways of working. Then we'd be 'quids in'.
- sveme 10y ago
  No one knows. I believe it would be a mistake for the UK to leave, as everything down that road is totally open, but I'm actually really curious to see what would happen. Interesting times. "May you live in interesting times" is a curse, mind.
- tonyedgecombe 10y ago
  Yes, we could boost our exports to China, in no time at all we could be doing as well as um... Germany.
- Gys 10y ago
  > 'I.e free trade deals with China, India, Brazil,' I wonder: would for example California by itself make better trading deals with those countries then the US as a whole can establish ? In economic theory bigger is better. Its interesting you mention only countries bigger then the UK instead of small ones. How do you think those countries look at sizes of other countries and regions ?
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    He/She doesn't care, because no one cares about small countries. They're unimportant on the grand scale of things... Oh, wait :)
- izacus 10y ago
  Yes, being pushed around by USA even more without the backing of other nations will help you a lot when negotiating independently.
mst 10y ago
Speaking as a .uk resident, I'm definitely in favour of 'remain', but extremely tired of the fear based rhetoric from both sides. Honestly, I think the key argument is "better the devil you know than a roll of the dice".
- monk_e_boy 10y ago
  Lots of people agree with you. It's disappointing that we should vote out of fear and not optimism.
  - abritinthebay 10y ago
    I'd go with vote informed- currently there's no information that backs a brexit being a good idea. Plenty against it however. So you say it's a "vote for optimism", and you're VERY right. Misplaced optimism, mind.
    - timlyo 10y ago
      > currently there's no information that backs a brexit being a good idea. Plenty against it however. What are these points against it? I have no idea how to vote so far.
      - monk_e_boy 10y ago
        I honestly think it is too complex for anyone to really know what is best for the UK as a whole. For individuals I think it is easier, there are plenty of people who are directly effected by immigration (houses, high tax, NHS collapse, overcrowded schools etc) ... and there are plenty of other people for who the EU is great ... small businesses, farmers, um, loads of others. The EU cleans up our beaches, rivers. Make sure our food is fit to eat. Tons of other stuff.
      - abritinthebay 10y ago
        Lots. I mean.. LOTS. Here's a sample: * Better regulations. Yes, this can be handled locally, but at a large cost. * Lower prices of goods – the EU ‘Single Market’ for all member countries is a massive saving. Impossible outside of the EU. * Free movement. Citizens are free to move from one member country to another. This is actually a massive boon to both leisure and commerce. Impossible without the EU. * Creation of jobs - over 3.5 million jobs in the UK have been generated over the years. Not massive but the economic hit would be painful outside of the EU. * The Structural and Investment Funds. Places all over the UK (and the EU) have been redeveloped, had economic investments, and companies funded. This is just not scalable economically outside of the EU. * Louder voice – Britain isn't an Empire any more. It might be the 2nd largest economy in the EU (9th in the world) but without all the others it is a much smaller voice when it comes to agreements - plus it would have to negotiate agreements itself again. This is a surprisingly subtle one in terms of impact long term. * Workers protections – the European Working Time Directive for a start but lots of other protections for EU citizens exist. There are more, but this is a good example. Turns out btw that while EU membership costs the UK a bunch per person it actually more than makes up for it once you factor in a lot of the costs it has saved us as well.
wahsd 10y ago
And the fear mongering commences. It's really rather abusive and manipulative how the establishment is just berating people with a sense of self-determination and dignity not to submit to central domination. If you think about it, it's really a counter-intuitive, yet rather expected behavior when you understand what is really happening in the world where a global elite is trying to consolidate and centralize ever more control and domination in a global system of government. Humanity needs actual diversity, not this mess that the EU and globalist, jet-setting elite have fooled the mentally ill liberal and Marxist minded people into beieving is diversity. We need differences, we need actual uniqueness; not homogenization, not consolidation and centralization. Unfortunately, the internet is actually contributing to that trend. Just look at the recent revelations about Facebook controlling the messsage, discussion, and conversation of it's users by controlling what they can see and others share with them. And that's Facebook, with triple digit million users; a number of controlled messaging and propaganda tool that all other dictators and authoritarian regimes would have lost their mind with glee over having access to. I can't recall off the top of my head who exactly is working on it, but I believe there are some interesting efforts going on at MIT to try to reintroduce decentralization back to the internet. We really need it. Humanity is really heading to a bad place if we don't figure this out.
lhnz 10y ago
The ASI has two great articles on why the UK should leave [0] and what economic/political relationships they should take part in if they do [1]. It's a far better read than the fear-mongering available elsewhere. I am voting leave but not for the reasons that are spotlighted by the mainstream media. I know that in the short-term there is some risk however I believe it is surmountable. I am much more worried by what will happen to this country if we remain in the EU over the next decade. [0] http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave [1] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution
- hardlianotion 10y ago
  Nice links. Nowhere near enough discussion of anything that matters in this debate.
- GFischer 10y ago
  The particular argument and graph that as a % of global GDP, Europe and the US have been diminishing while China has been growing does sound a bit shortsighted... after all, if China is joining the developed world, that's EXACTLY how the graph should like. A much more informative graph would map relative growth versus countries that didn't "join the club" (say, Norway, Switzerland or others). I'm not British, and I'm not sure whether I'd vote for or against if I were, but it's interesting.
- UK-AL 10y ago
  A lot of people are using immigration issues to argue for brexit. Personally I hate this. I'm generally for immigration. There is a positive vision for brexit, which about being open to the world, embracing free trade, free movement of labour, and reducing regulation. The current version immigration system is broken. Any one with little skills can come to the UK from Europe. A doctor from outside Europe will have real difficultly. Personally I want both people.
  - parenthephobia 10y ago
    People should stop using immigration to argue for brexit because it's a nonsense argument. Leaving the EU wouldn't effect our border controls, because they aren't set by the EU. The UK isn't part of the "Schengen Area" of countries without mutual border control. The UK has control over its border policy, despite what brexit campaigners claim. It is the UK government that chooses to implement border policies which are regarded by some as "too lax", and then, sometimes, chooses to blame the EU for it.
UK-AL 10y ago
I think Brexit also has a potential to make the UK better for trade. simplifying regulations and instead of thinking European, thinking global.
- zepto 10y ago
  An independent uk cannot simplify regulations. Just by having a separate set of regulations from the rest of Europe guarantees more complexity, and automatically places the UK behind the rest of Europe in terms of market value.
dharma1 10y ago
I don't think the public will vote to leave, majority don't like certain things about the EU, sometimes rightly so, but at the same time are aware of the potential economic damage if they voted "Leave". What's annoying is how the vote is being used irresponsibly as a tool in domestic politics. First - Cameron calling the vote to start off with, just to please backbenchers in his own party. What a waste of money this whole exercise has been. I bet he's hoping he could turn the clock back. Second - Boris Johnson. Come on. People are not going to vote you for PM based on your "Leave" campaign. A haircut would go much further and be far less risky.
- alexbilbie 10y ago
  It was part of the Conservative's election manifesto to enable a referendum of EU membership; enough people voted Conservative for them to form a government therefore they are enacting their manifesto. It wasn't a knee jerk reaction by Cameron over the last year; it's been something brewing for many many years. If Cameron resigns because of a leave vote then it is highly unlikely there will be a general election as a result. Conservative party members will vote for the next PM at party conference, not the general public. So Boris won't need _your_ vote to become PM, haircut or not.
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    Wait a second! but that's utterly non-democratic! We have to elect the PM, not a bunch of bureaucrats! /s
YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
I'm Greek but live and work in the UK. I'm an immigrant, I guess. I've done well for myself here. If the Brexit happens, I'll be in a tough spot, possibly forced to leave. To go where? Back home! That would be a bit of a disaster for me. And yet- I think the UK should leave. From living with the British it seems to me that they really, really want to go. They want it for absurd, idiotic reasons. They 're motivated by nationalism, xenophobia, a ridiculous belief that if they kick all the foreigners off their island everything broken with the UK will magically fix itself... In short, the worse, most stupid sentiments that could ever inform such a serious decision. And yet- they seem to want it. What's more, while they're in they're constantly disruptive and reactionary, digging in their heels and protesting every effort to bring the rest of the continent closer _as the rest of the continent wants it_. They are the grumpy man of Europe and proud of it. So let them have their little moment. Let them wave two fingers in our collective faces. And let them get out just like they want it. That's what they want. Let them have it.
- alexbilbie 10y ago
  You are evidently a positive net contributor to the UK, why would you be forced out? I find it completely unimaginable that you would be forcibly removed.
  - gpderetta 10y ago
    It is one thing living as a EU citizen, another as an immigrant with considerably less rights, though. If GB leaves, me and my family might consider leaving the country as well. The alternative is applying for citizenship, of course. edit: living/leaving
    - soneil 10y ago
      I have exactly the same problem. I'm British. I live in the EU. This is a vote to potentially take away my right to live & work here, and I don't even get to vote in it. (And I'm not eligible for citizenship; I move too much. I have to have 5 years behind me and intent to make this my home. I have neither.)
jpfr 10y ago
Between a Greek accountant and a German one, who do you prefer? [sarcasm off]
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  That's just mild racism. The answer would depend on the competency of the individuals involved, not their nationality.
- dang 10y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11754550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11754550 and marked it off-topic.
alexbilbie 10y ago
"Brexit the Movie" is highly entertaining and well worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0
raverbashing 10y ago
Yes, UK, please leave You can't even get around ordering stuff right when you go to Spain for vacations, never mind enjoying the freedom of movement the EU allows You complain about immigration but you bring also a lot of people from your ex-colonies and do you really think this has something to do with the EU? And Cameron's latest deal has some provisions in relation to immigrant's benefits. You complain about the Euro but you couldn't even be bothered with that. You talk about "going global" while you're breaking up with your neighbours? Yes, nice one Complaints about regulation, true, EU bureaucracy, true. But everybody else has to do that as well. (Or, what's also likely, they will "leave" but keep a lot of similar deals in place)
Graham67 10y ago
A vote LEAVE will not take us completely out, a vote REMAIN will take us in so deep, we never vote again, the pound becomes 'fixed-rate' and the central banks own us. The EU did not really help Greece, in it's difficulties. The UK has a better starting position, but that is everybodies future, in or out, and will be worse in. The EU, as one of the largest 'countries' in the world, has not addressed the problems of climate change. Our beaches might be cleaner, but our skies are melting the Arctic, and the world's approach to carbon mining, is 'business-as-usual'. Climate distruction and ocean acidification are not even mentioned in the governments advice pamphlet (remain), nor in TTIP. The EU will be stronger if we vote leave.
throwaway731294 10y ago
This is only my personal perspective. I come from outside Europe so I have no dog in the fight. The impact seems quite real. My company is already having trouble filling up positions. Nobody applied in the last few months (my company consists largely of British and Europeans worker plus a small number of oversea workers). My speculation is that if UK is going to treat EU citizens the same as everybody else in the world, Europeans might as well head for the US. In case you don’t know about UK visa system, I (and possibly other tech workers) am on a T2 visa. The quota for T2 last year is around 20k national wide. Good luck for all tech companies, big or small, that employ Europeans. My predication is that leaving EU is going to hit UK tech sector hard. Even if companies don’t mind paying for a T2 visa (my company paid more than 2000 pounds), good luck dealing with home office. On the other hand, I think EU is a mess. Watching the Greece debt crisis as it developed is like watching slow motion car crash, so I don’t really blame if some UK people really want to leave for good reasons. And here goes my personal rant: I really don't care whether the UK leaves the EU or no, but at the end of the day, I am really fed up with all the talks about immigrants taking jobs and putting pressure on the system. Heck, I pay hefty sum of tax and NI contribution but the service I receive is abysmal. The cost of living is high but the salary is not that high. I just don't feel welcomed here. I couldn't imagine making this place my home. The referendum could be the last straw on camel's back. I would probably move to somewhere else where the weather is nicer and the pay is higher.

34 points by applecore 10y ago

I live in the UK. I am an internationalist, believe in free trade, good governance and keen supporter of human rights. I also believe in self-determination and will vote for UK leaving the EU when the time comes. I think the EU is undemocratic, deeply flawed and probably not reformable. Because of its size, these flaws matter in a crisis. Balkans, Euro, Ukraine, refugees - EU response to each has been ridiculous and dangerous.

rtpg 10y ago
At least for the Euro crisis, the main issue is not enough integration, not too much. Though honestly I can understand not wanting to give control of your budget over to Germany...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
onemorebrowser 10y ago
Consider the alternative to the EU's 'flawed and dangerous' response to the Balkans, etc - 28 individual responses which take no consideration of each other and cumulatively achieve nothing. Some bureaucracy, organisational headaches (and yes of course, allowing those evil men in Brussles to tell us how straight our carrots can be) are a small price to pay for getting stuff done in our closely connected continent. Taking the moral high ground with the 'undemocratic' argument gets you nowhere really. Britain has an unelected house of Parliament and many, many more historical oddities all of its own which are deeply undemocratic. All you end up with is 'our brand of undemocracy is better than your dirty foreign one', and yes I'm aware that this is an oversimplification of sovereignty, etc, etc.
flexie 10y ago
The EU is not democratic enough and does not have sufficient military power. But Britain is too small and weak to ever again become a unit regulating itself. Too much is cross border nowadays and probably also was back in the 1700s and 1800s when the notion of sovereign nation state flourished. The UK, like all other small and medium sized countries, is not a unit in itself in terms of any of the issues that a nation state would normally (pretend to) govern: - Economy; You import most of what you consume and much of what you produce is exported. - Tariffs; If you were to unilaterally increase tariffs, other countries would punish you the same way. - Language; Your language is a mixture of Germanic, Old Norse, French, Latin etc. - Education and research: You have imported most of what you learn, at any level of the educational system, and you export most of your valuable research. - Demographics; you are a diverse society. Quite many British people go abroad to work or study and many British are first, second or third generation immigrants. - Military; You depend on the good will and alliances of your neighbors and the US. Contrary to most other European states, you did manage to continue to function as a nation during WW2 but were it not for the Americans and the Russians, you would have lost to the Germans. The whole notion of military sovereignty for small countries is ridiculous. It's like a small dog barking at a bigger dog (I'm Danish, so I don't mean it as an offence). I could go on. No matter what the issue is, the solution is International. The UK, and any other European country, benefits from the EU. The UK with its financial industry, dependence of foreign labour and dependence of export more than most. The reason we all speak English here on HN is British colonialism. That was the preferred way to regulate and govern international relations back in the heydays of nation states. I prefer voluntary cooperation like the EU. A stronger, bigger and more democratic union, but a union.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > " But Britain is too small and weak to ever again become a unit regulating itself." With all due respect, the UK has the 5th largest economy in the world. Countries with weaker economies than the UK manage just fine on their own. The question isn't whether the UK can or can't do it, but rather whether we should.
ZenoArrow 10y ago
With regards to free trade, can you explain what you mean by this? This is a genuine question. Free trade seems to me to be a somewhat nebulous term, stretched to serve a wide range of economic approaches, and I'd be interested in getting a better sense of clarity.
- hardlianotion 10y ago
  The effort to make trading relationships between people easy and not exploitative, the intent of making all parties richer. Obvious examples include removing tariffs, harmonising standards and law where this is possible and agreeing procedures for conflict resolution.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    I see. In that case, are free trade and free trade agreements always the same thing? For example, if two countries strike up a free trade deal that protects the agriculture industries of those countries, do they do so in order to protect themselves from competition from other countries?
    - hardlianotion 10y ago
      Seems clear to me that they are not. Same for many other ideals when compared with what is actually done in practice.

SeanDav 10y ago

What has been driving me crazy, is the sheer, utter guesswork - from both sides. No one can predict the future. Both sides are making predictions and both sides are just guessing. Meanwhile the real issues are not being discussed or debated in any kind of sensible manner. The UK is spending around 350 GBP million a week (minus some small amount they get back in rebates from the EU) on supporting the EU and have no control on millions of migrants coming into the UK to benefit from its completely free NHS medical system, (even breast implants for cosmetic purposes are allowed in some cases), free schooling, very high minimum wage laws and extremely generous benefits system (including free housing). These system are now at breaking point and there is no end in sight to the ever increasing load on the system. Meanwhile, the politicians sling mud at each other...

kjjw 10y ago
I heard the Daily Mail is looking for staff.
switch007 10y ago
"minus some small amount they get back in rebates". The rebate is actually a discount: we do not send the money then get it back. With the rebate, we pay around £250m/week (still a lot of money) https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million...
DanBC 10y ago
> (minus some small amount they get back in rebates from the EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate > Based on a net contribution of €12.1 billion (£9.8 billion) in 2014, the UK Treasury estimates the 2015 rebate amounted to €6.2 billion (£4.9 billion) That doesn't sound like a small rebate. Even the wingnut Daily Mail says > In total since 1979, Britain has paid in about €260 billion (£228 billion). It has received back in benefits just €163 billion (£143 billion). This rebate is only counting direct payments from EU (for farm subsidies, or to fund research), and ignores other benefits we get from EU.

wapapaloobop 10y ago

The world and its economies become less and less predictable the faster technology advances and so, for me, it's political considerations that matter. I don't want political integration with continental Europe. We have separate languages and separate traditions, which are valuable. The English Channel (a 20 mile wide body of sea) gave England the scope to develop more freedoms together with a unique outlook, which are now under threat. The rest of the world loses out too if they disappear.

napworth 10y ago
> unique outlook I don't believe you. England's outlook is one of the most dismal I have seen from all the countries in the world.
- hardlianotion 10y ago
  I like England. What is it about the country and its 50 million inhabitants distinguish it in such a dismal way from other countries?
- wapapaloobop 10y ago
  One can see differences in specific laws and legal traditions. But it's the outlook (inexplicit conception of freedom) that develops first and which is responsible for further progress. It's not possible to appreciate in depth the different outlooks of different national cultures. If it were then they wouldn't be as precious as they are.

wsc981 10y ago

This fear mongering has got to stop. It might just as likely boost the economy of the UK. And it certainly would assure the people of sovereignty, something the UK would lose if it would further integrate with the EU. Just look at my country, Holland. Pretty much all important decisions are made by the EU. An example: we cannot control our own borders. We cannot decide how many immigrants we want to allow. The EU wants to force quotas on countries and if they don't accept the quotas, they want to give the countries fines. The EU is undemocratic and if one values freedom, one should stay as far away from the EU as possible, even if it would be at some cost of the economy (though I'd say this is speculation).

actionwords 10y ago
you want to control your own borders and say who and who not can become Dutch? That sounds awful [buzzword] of you. You don't want people to think you're a [buzzword], do you? Support EU. Don't be a [buzzword]. National sovereignty is overrated anyway.
Gys 10y ago
> It might just as likely boost the economy of the UK. Pure assumption on your side or can you support this with sources ? > We cannot control our own borders. We cannot decide how many immigrants we want to allow. Seems to me much of this sentiment about leaving the EU is merely fear for being overrun by non-natives. Talking about 'This fear mongering has got to stop'...
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  You're not wrong. I've yet to hear any pro-exit talking point that isn't xenophobic, jingoistic, or at BEST just hopelessly misinformed economically. The fact that the BNP and UKIP are solidly behind an exit should be a good indication that it's terrible. They are like a bellwether for awful ideas.
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    Pro-immigration person here. Considering brexit. [0] http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave [1] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution

vegancap 10y ago

Could, but most likely won't. It will however most likely do the exact opposite, if our government makes the rights calls in terms of international trade. If we leave, to become more global. I.e free trade deals with China, India, Brazil, the English speaking commonwealth, whom share much of our laws and ways of working. Then we'd be 'quids in'.

sveme 10y ago
No one knows. I believe it would be a mistake for the UK to leave, as everything down that road is totally open, but I'm actually really curious to see what would happen. Interesting times. "May you live in interesting times" is a curse, mind.
tonyedgecombe 10y ago
Yes, we could boost our exports to China, in no time at all we could be doing as well as um... Germany.
Gys 10y ago
> 'I.e free trade deals with China, India, Brazil,' I wonder: would for example California by itself make better trading deals with those countries then the US as a whole can establish ? In economic theory bigger is better. Its interesting you mention only countries bigger then the UK instead of small ones. How do you think those countries look at sizes of other countries and regions ?
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  He/She doesn't care, because no one cares about small countries. They're unimportant on the grand scale of things... Oh, wait :)
izacus 10y ago
Yes, being pushed around by USA even more without the backing of other nations will help you a lot when negotiating independently.

mst 10y ago

Speaking as a .uk resident, I'm definitely in favour of 'remain', but extremely tired of the fear based rhetoric from both sides. Honestly, I think the key argument is "better the devil you know than a roll of the dice".

monk_e_boy 10y ago
Lots of people agree with you. It's disappointing that we should vote out of fear and not optimism.
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  I'd go with vote informed- currently there's no information that backs a brexit being a good idea. Plenty against it however. So you say it's a "vote for optimism", and you're VERY right. Misplaced optimism, mind.
  - timlyo 10y ago
    > currently there's no information that backs a brexit being a good idea. Plenty against it however. What are these points against it? I have no idea how to vote so far.
    - monk_e_boy 10y ago
      I honestly think it is too complex for anyone to really know what is best for the UK as a whole. For individuals I think it is easier, there are plenty of people who are directly effected by immigration (houses, high tax, NHS collapse, overcrowded schools etc) ... and there are plenty of other people for who the EU is great ... small businesses, farmers, um, loads of others. The EU cleans up our beaches, rivers. Make sure our food is fit to eat. Tons of other stuff.
    - abritinthebay 10y ago
      Lots. I mean.. LOTS. Here's a sample: * Better regulations. Yes, this can be handled locally, but at a large cost. * Lower prices of goods – the EU ‘Single Market’ for all member countries is a massive saving. Impossible outside of the EU. * Free movement. Citizens are free to move from one member country to another. This is actually a massive boon to both leisure and commerce. Impossible without the EU. * Creation of jobs - over 3.5 million jobs in the UK have been generated over the years. Not massive but the economic hit would be painful outside of the EU. * The Structural and Investment Funds. Places all over the UK (and the EU) have been redeveloped, had economic investments, and companies funded. This is just not scalable economically outside of the EU. * Louder voice – Britain isn't an Empire any more. It might be the 2nd largest economy in the EU (9th in the world) but without all the others it is a much smaller voice when it comes to agreements - plus it would have to negotiate agreements itself again. This is a surprisingly subtle one in terms of impact long term. * Workers protections – the European Working Time Directive for a start but lots of other protections for EU citizens exist. There are more, but this is a good example. Turns out btw that while EU membership costs the UK a bunch per person it actually more than makes up for it once you factor in a lot of the costs it has saved us as well.

wahsd 10y ago

And the fear mongering commences. It's really rather abusive and manipulative how the establishment is just berating people with a sense of self-determination and dignity not to submit to central domination. If you think about it, it's really a counter-intuitive, yet rather expected behavior when you understand what is really happening in the world where a global elite is trying to consolidate and centralize ever more control and domination in a global system of government. Humanity needs actual diversity, not this mess that the EU and globalist, jet-setting elite have fooled the mentally ill liberal and Marxist minded people into beieving is diversity. We need differences, we need actual uniqueness; not homogenization, not consolidation and centralization. Unfortunately, the internet is actually contributing to that trend. Just look at the recent revelations about Facebook controlling the messsage, discussion, and conversation of it's users by controlling what they can see and others share with them. And that's Facebook, with triple digit million users; a number of controlled messaging and propaganda tool that all other dictators and authoritarian regimes would have lost their mind with glee over having access to. I can't recall off the top of my head who exactly is working on it, but I believe there are some interesting efforts going on at MIT to try to reintroduce decentralization back to the internet. We really need it. Humanity is really heading to a bad place if we don't figure this out.

lhnz 10y ago

The ASI has two great articles on why the UK should leave [0] and what economic/political relationships they should take part in if they do [1]. It's a far better read than the fear-mongering available elsewhere. I am voting leave but not for the reasons that are spotlighted by the mainstream media. I know that in the short-term there is some risk however I believe it is surmountable. I am much more worried by what will happen to this country if we remain in the EU over the next decade. [0] http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave [1] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution

hardlianotion 10y ago
Nice links. Nowhere near enough discussion of anything that matters in this debate.
GFischer 10y ago
The particular argument and graph that as a % of global GDP, Europe and the US have been diminishing while China has been growing does sound a bit shortsighted... after all, if China is joining the developed world, that's EXACTLY how the graph should like. A much more informative graph would map relative growth versus countries that didn't "join the club" (say, Norway, Switzerland or others). I'm not British, and I'm not sure whether I'd vote for or against if I were, but it's interesting.
UK-AL 10y ago
A lot of people are using immigration issues to argue for brexit. Personally I hate this. I'm generally for immigration. There is a positive vision for brexit, which about being open to the world, embracing free trade, free movement of labour, and reducing regulation. The current version immigration system is broken. Any one with little skills can come to the UK from Europe. A doctor from outside Europe will have real difficultly. Personally I want both people.
- parenthephobia 10y ago
  People should stop using immigration to argue for brexit because it's a nonsense argument. Leaving the EU wouldn't effect our border controls, because they aren't set by the EU. The UK isn't part of the "Schengen Area" of countries without mutual border control. The UK has control over its border policy, despite what brexit campaigners claim. It is the UK government that chooses to implement border policies which are regarded by some as "too lax", and then, sometimes, chooses to blame the EU for it.

UK-AL 10y ago

I think Brexit also has a potential to make the UK better for trade. simplifying regulations and instead of thinking European, thinking global.

zepto 10y ago
An independent uk cannot simplify regulations. Just by having a separate set of regulations from the rest of Europe guarantees more complexity, and automatically places the UK behind the rest of Europe in terms of market value.

dharma1 10y ago

I don't think the public will vote to leave, majority don't like certain things about the EU, sometimes rightly so, but at the same time are aware of the potential economic damage if they voted "Leave". What's annoying is how the vote is being used irresponsibly as a tool in domestic politics. First - Cameron calling the vote to start off with, just to please backbenchers in his own party. What a waste of money this whole exercise has been. I bet he's hoping he could turn the clock back. Second - Boris Johnson. Come on. People are not going to vote you for PM based on your "Leave" campaign. A haircut would go much further and be far less risky.

alexbilbie 10y ago
It was part of the Conservative's election manifesto to enable a referendum of EU membership; enough people voted Conservative for them to form a government therefore they are enacting their manifesto. It wasn't a knee jerk reaction by Cameron over the last year; it's been something brewing for many many years. If Cameron resigns because of a leave vote then it is highly unlikely there will be a general election as a result. Conservative party members will vote for the next PM at party conference, not the general public. So Boris won't need _your_ vote to become PM, haircut or not.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  Wait a second! but that's utterly non-democratic! We have to elect the PM, not a bunch of bureaucrats! /s

YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago

I'm Greek but live and work in the UK. I'm an immigrant, I guess. I've done well for myself here. If the Brexit happens, I'll be in a tough spot, possibly forced to leave. To go where? Back home! That would be a bit of a disaster for me. And yet- I think the UK should leave. From living with the British it seems to me that they really, really want to go. They want it for absurd, idiotic reasons. They 're motivated by nationalism, xenophobia, a ridiculous belief that if they kick all the foreigners off their island everything broken with the UK will magically fix itself... In short, the worse, most stupid sentiments that could ever inform such a serious decision. And yet- they seem to want it. What's more, while they're in they're constantly disruptive and reactionary, digging in their heels and protesting every effort to bring the rest of the continent closer _as the rest of the continent wants it_. They are the grumpy man of Europe and proud of it. So let them have their little moment. Let them wave two fingers in our collective faces. And let them get out just like they want it. That's what they want. Let them have it.

alexbilbie 10y ago
You are evidently a positive net contributor to the UK, why would you be forced out? I find it completely unimaginable that you would be forcibly removed.
- gpderetta 10y ago
  It is one thing living as a EU citizen, another as an immigrant with considerably less rights, though. If GB leaves, me and my family might consider leaving the country as well. The alternative is applying for citizenship, of course. edit: living/leaving
  - soneil 10y ago
    I have exactly the same problem. I'm British. I live in the EU. This is a vote to potentially take away my right to live & work here, and I don't even get to vote in it. (And I'm not eligible for citizenship; I move too much. I have to have 5 years behind me and intent to make this my home. I have neither.)

jpfr 10y ago

Between a Greek accountant and a German one, who do you prefer? [sarcasm off]

ZenoArrow 10y ago
That's just mild racism. The answer would depend on the competency of the individuals involved, not their nationality.
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11754550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11754550 and marked it off-topic.

alexbilbie 10y ago

"Brexit the Movie" is highly entertaining and well worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

raverbashing 10y ago

Yes, UK, please leave You can't even get around ordering stuff right when you go to Spain for vacations, never mind enjoying the freedom of movement the EU allows You complain about immigration but you bring also a lot of people from your ex-colonies and do you really think this has something to do with the EU? And Cameron's latest deal has some provisions in relation to immigrant's benefits. You complain about the Euro but you couldn't even be bothered with that. You talk about "going global" while you're breaking up with your neighbours? Yes, nice one Complaints about regulation, true, EU bureaucracy, true. But everybody else has to do that as well. (Or, what's also likely, they will "leave" but keep a lot of similar deals in place)

Graham67 10y ago

A vote LEAVE will not take us completely out, a vote REMAIN will take us in so deep, we never vote again, the pound becomes 'fixed-rate' and the central banks own us. The EU did not really help Greece, in it's difficulties. The UK has a better starting position, but that is everybodies future, in or out, and will be worse in. The EU, as one of the largest 'countries' in the world, has not addressed the problems of climate change. Our beaches might be cleaner, but our skies are melting the Arctic, and the world's approach to carbon mining, is 'business-as-usual'. Climate distruction and ocean acidification are not even mentioned in the governments advice pamphlet (remain), nor in TTIP. The EU will be stronger if we vote leave.

throwaway731294 10y ago

This is only my personal perspective. I come from outside Europe so I have no dog in the fight. The impact seems quite real. My company is already having trouble filling up positions. Nobody applied in the last few months (my company consists largely of British and Europeans worker plus a small number of oversea workers). My speculation is that if UK is going to treat EU citizens the same as everybody else in the world, Europeans might as well head for the US. In case you don’t know about UK visa system, I (and possibly other tech workers) am on a T2 visa. The quota for T2 last year is around 20k national wide. Good luck for all tech companies, big or small, that employ Europeans. My predication is that leaving EU is going to hit UK tech sector hard. Even if companies don’t mind paying for a T2 visa (my company paid more than 2000 pounds), good luck dealing with home office. On the other hand, I think EU is a mess. Watching the Greece debt crisis as it developed is like watching slow motion car crash, so I don’t really blame if some UK people really want to leave for good reasons. And here goes my personal rant: I really don't care whether the UK leaves the EU or no, but at the end of the day, I am really fed up with all the talks about immigrants taking jobs and putting pressure on the system. Heck, I pay hefty sum of tax and NI contribution but the service I receive is abysmal. The cost of living is high but the salary is not that high. I just don't feel welcomed here. I couldn't imagine making this place my home. The referendum could be the last straw on camel's back. I would probably move to somewhere else where the weather is nicer and the pay is higher.