4 ms·

I've always wondered whether the growing modern obsession with bug killing and so forth might be counter productive. Has anyone seen any studies they can recom

by ErrantX 17y ago

I've always wondered whether the growing modern obsession with bug killing and so forth might be counter productive. Has anyone seen any studies they can recommend into the long term effect on our immune system?

alexandros 17y ago
What I'm more worried about is the claim that they kill 99.9% of germs. This would mean that the most resistant 0.1% get all the free space to grow. We're not disinfecting our world, we're creating evolutionary pressure on the germs to become resistant to our countermeasures.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  Does that mean they kill 99.9% of known germ types (i.e. some are resistant). Or that it is able to kill 99.9% of germs on a known object (i.e. some random subset of germs will escape destruction for whatever reason). I suppose the former but I've never researched.
  - alexandros 17y ago
    That's interesting. I always interpret it to be 99.9% of the population on a given surface. It could be read as types also I guess. EDIT: the article posted here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1031922 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1031922 seems to support the 'types' theory, although it also casts significant doubt on the validity of the claims.
  - cabalamat 17y ago
    ...and the other 0.1% kill you...
- techiferous 17y ago
  It's an arms race.
- FlorinAndrei 17y ago
  "we're creating evolutionary pressure on the germs to become resistant to our countermeasures" I thought that's what we were doing anyway.
- Dove 17y ago
  Some things are easier to evolve a resistance to than others. The antibacterial measures we apply externally (rather than internally) tend to be more of the "would kill anything living" variety than the "targets specific, removable weakness of this organism". Hence, hard to adapt to. Hand sanitizers, for example, work by immersing bacteria in alcohol, a potent organic solvent. It dissolves cell membranes and denatures proteins. While there are bugs that can live in some pretty harsh conditions, to my mind, worrying about the bacteria in your kitchen sink spontaneously developing resistance to alcohol is like worrying about them spontaneously developing resistance to boiling water. Possible, on the millions-of-years scale. Not exactly a big concern in this lifetime.
  - derobert 17y ago
    Another big reason resistance to alcohol (and boiling water) doesn't develop is that neither is persistent in the environment, and thus the selective pressure vanishes fairly quickly. The mutations required to resist either likely have downsides in normal environments, and thus will normally be selected against.
dskhatri 17y ago
I share the same wonderment! In the 20 years of growing up in Kenya, I had never heard of anyone with allergies. I am baffled about how widespread allergies are in the US. Could the prolonged use of germ-killing products in the US cause this disparity? Unfortunately, I do not have statistics on allergy prevalence in Kenya vs. USA, and my wonderment is based simply on observation/experience. [Edit]. The Hygiene Hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis): "In medicine, the hygiene hypothesis is a hypothesis that states that a lack of early childhood exposure to infectious agents, symbiotic microorganisms (e.g., gut flora or probiotics), and parasites increases susceptibility to allergic diseases by modulating immune system development" [Edit2]. Statistics on the prevalence of allergies in the US: http://aaaai.org/media/statistics/allergy-statistics.asp http://aaaai.org/media/statistics/allergy-statistics.asp
- jrockway 17y ago
  Alternate theory: there are different kinds of plants in the US versus Kenya. Humans happen to be allergic to the pollens that the US plants produce, and not allergic to the ones that the Kenyan plants produce. One thing that definitely causes a lot of disease in the US is moldy buildings. Bringing in fresh air is expensive, so they just recirculate the dirty, moldy air. Then everyone gets sick, because mold in your lungs is not so good for you. (Actually, the mold gets stuck in your sinuses and then forms a film that is difficult to kill with antifungal medications. Fun! At least the building is "green"...)

by ErrantX 17y ago

alexandros 17y ago

What I'm more worried about is the claim that they kill 99.9% of germs. This would mean that the most resistant 0.1% get all the free space to grow. We're not disinfecting our world, we're creating evolutionary pressure on the germs to become resistant to our countermeasures.

ErrantX 17y ago
Does that mean they kill 99.9% of known germ types (i.e. some are resistant). Or that it is able to kill 99.9% of germs on a known object (i.e. some random subset of germs will escape destruction for whatever reason). I suppose the former but I've never researched.
- alexandros 17y ago
  That's interesting. I always interpret it to be 99.9% of the population on a given surface. It could be read as types also I guess. EDIT: the article posted here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1031922 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1031922 seems to support the 'types' theory, although it also casts significant doubt on the validity of the claims.
- cabalamat 17y ago
  ...and the other 0.1% kill you...
techiferous 17y ago
It's an arms race.
FlorinAndrei 17y ago
"we're creating evolutionary pressure on the germs to become resistant to our countermeasures" I thought that's what we were doing anyway.
Dove 17y ago
Some things are easier to evolve a resistance to than others. The antibacterial measures we apply externally (rather than internally) tend to be more of the "would kill anything living" variety than the "targets specific, removable weakness of this organism". Hence, hard to adapt to. Hand sanitizers, for example, work by immersing bacteria in alcohol, a potent organic solvent. It dissolves cell membranes and denatures proteins. While there are bugs that can live in some pretty harsh conditions, to my mind, worrying about the bacteria in your kitchen sink spontaneously developing resistance to alcohol is like worrying about them spontaneously developing resistance to boiling water. Possible, on the millions-of-years scale. Not exactly a big concern in this lifetime.
- derobert 17y ago
  Another big reason resistance to alcohol (and boiling water) doesn't develop is that neither is persistent in the environment, and thus the selective pressure vanishes fairly quickly. The mutations required to resist either likely have downsides in normal environments, and thus will normally be selected against.

dskhatri 17y ago

I share the same wonderment! In the 20 years of growing up in Kenya, I had never heard of anyone with allergies. I am baffled about how widespread allergies are in the US. Could the prolonged use of germ-killing products in the US cause this disparity? Unfortunately, I do not have statistics on allergy prevalence in Kenya vs. USA, and my wonderment is based simply on observation/experience. [Edit]. The Hygiene Hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis): "In medicine, the hygiene hypothesis is a hypothesis that states that a lack of early childhood exposure to infectious agents, symbiotic microorganisms (e.g., gut flora or probiotics), and parasites increases susceptibility to allergic diseases by modulating immune system development" [Edit2]. Statistics on the prevalence of allergies in the US: http://aaaai.org/media/statistics/allergy-statistics.asp http://aaaai.org/media/statistics/allergy-statistics.asp

jrockway 17y ago
Alternate theory: there are different kinds of plants in the US versus Kenya. Humans happen to be allergic to the pollens that the US plants produce, and not allergic to the ones that the Kenyan plants produce. One thing that definitely causes a lot of disease in the US is moldy buildings. Bringing in fresh air is expensive, so they just recirculate the dirty, moldy air. Then everyone gets sick, because mold in your lungs is not so good for you. (Actually, the mold gets stuck in your sinuses and then forms a film that is difficult to kill with antifungal medications. Fun! At least the building is "green"...)