4 ms·

Seems like every time this topic comes up, there are people who seem to "know" a lot of things, and on occasion they can point to real documentation -- letters

Seems like every time this topic comes up, there are people who seem to "know" a lot of things, and on occasion they can point to real documentation -- letters that can be traced to people in the presidential cabinet, for example -- but very often the things people "know" turn out to be speculative, or after-the-fact rationalizations, or connecting dots that were known individually by people in different parts of the government but who didn't have a way to connect with each other. So my question is, how well documented was the Japanese back-channel surrender offer? Is it documented that it was made to legitimate decision-makers through those back channels?

fenomas 10y ago
It's many years since I visited, but the atomic bomb museum in Hiroshima has an exhibit that appeared to cover the evidence surrounding this pretty exhaustively. My vague recollection is that most of it was evidence of perception on the US side that Japan was ready to surrender - as opposed to evidence about specific back-channel negotiations.
nxzero 10y ago
Question should not be how well it is documented, but why it is not well documented.
- kctess5 10y ago
  I feel like this is akin to asking why the staging of the moon landing was not more well documented.
  - nxzero 10y ago
    The two bombs killed hundreds of thousands of people. No idea what your point is, please explain.
    - lotharbot 10y ago
      I think he's implying that "why it isn't documented" might be "because it didn't happen" ("it" being serious offers of surrender by Japan that reached the ears of US decision makers.) And that asking "why wasn't it documented?" presupposes that it did happen, which makes it a leading question.
      - kctess5 10y ago
        Yep.
        nxzero 10y ago
        I'm not assuming that it did happened, I'm assuming that if you're going to kill hundreds of thousands of people, that every attempt to reach a outcome that does not require it should be tried and documented.
        JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Does 'years of war and 50 millions dead' count as an attempt? Rather than an armchair, the decision-makers were coming from a viewpoint that included more of their friends dying horribly every week. As Tibbets, the guy that flew the mission said about critics of the event, "Those people never had their balls on that cold, hard anvil. They can say anything they want."
    - kctess5 10y ago
      The parent comment was in a sense asking if nkoren's assertion was reality, or after the fact speculation. If it was in fact speculation (like "the moon landing was staged") then it would follow that there wouldn't be a large amount of documentation. Admittedly not the best comparison.
nkoren 10y ago
> So my question is, how well documented was the Japanese back-channel surrender offer? Is it documented that it was made to legitimate decision-makers through those back channels? [Edit: I linked to a terrible source. I apologise.]
- lotharbot 10y ago
  interesting. Based on that, it looks like the sticking point really was whether the Emperor's safety would be guaranteed (thought he was eventually kept as a figurehead, it's not clear the US leadership expected to take that path.) EDIT: that said, do you have a source that isn't a holocaust-denial website?
  - nkoren 10y ago
    Ugh, yeah, that's a terrible source. Apologies for the bad Google-fu. I have heard this claim from decidedly less-terrible sources, but the hour is too late in my current timezone to pursue this thread. So until then I will need to relax the certitude of my claims.
- crazydoggers 10y ago
  IHR is not a trustworthy source... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Rev... "The IHR is not regarded as conducting serious historical research by mainstream historians and academics but rather as conducting pseudo-science..."
  - nkoren 10y ago
    Thank you for pointing this out. I unreservedly withdraw my citation!
    - tomcorrigan 10y ago
      Having withdrawn the citation you should either replace it with a better one or retract your assertion.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

fenomas 10y ago

It's many years since I visited, but the atomic bomb museum in Hiroshima has an exhibit that appeared to cover the evidence surrounding this pretty exhaustively. My vague recollection is that most of it was evidence of perception on the US side that Japan was ready to surrender - as opposed to evidence about specific back-channel negotiations.

nxzero 10y ago

Question should not be how well it is documented, but why it is not well documented.

kctess5 10y ago
I feel like this is akin to asking why the staging of the moon landing was not more well documented.
- nxzero 10y ago
  The two bombs killed hundreds of thousands of people. No idea what your point is, please explain.
  - lotharbot 10y ago
    I think he's implying that "why it isn't documented" might be "because it didn't happen" ("it" being serious offers of surrender by Japan that reached the ears of US decision makers.) And that asking "why wasn't it documented?" presupposes that it did happen, which makes it a leading question.
    - kctess5 10y ago
      Yep.
      - nxzero 10y ago
        I'm not assuming that it did happened, I'm assuming that if you're going to kill hundreds of thousands of people, that every attempt to reach a outcome that does not require it should be tried and documented.
        JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Does 'years of war and 50 millions dead' count as an attempt? Rather than an armchair, the decision-makers were coming from a viewpoint that included more of their friends dying horribly every week. As Tibbets, the guy that flew the mission said about critics of the event, "Those people never had their balls on that cold, hard anvil. They can say anything they want."
  - kctess5 10y ago
    The parent comment was in a sense asking if nkoren's assertion was reality, or after the fact speculation. If it was in fact speculation (like "the moon landing was staged") then it would follow that there wouldn't be a large amount of documentation. Admittedly not the best comparison.

nkoren 10y ago

> So my question is, how well documented was the Japanese back-channel surrender offer? Is it documented that it was made to legitimate decision-makers through those back channels? [Edit: I linked to a terrible source. I apologise.]

lotharbot 10y ago
interesting. Based on that, it looks like the sticking point really was whether the Emperor's safety would be guaranteed (thought he was eventually kept as a figurehead, it's not clear the US leadership expected to take that path.) EDIT: that said, do you have a source that isn't a holocaust-denial website?
- nkoren 10y ago
  Ugh, yeah, that's a terrible source. Apologies for the bad Google-fu. I have heard this claim from decidedly less-terrible sources, but the hour is too late in my current timezone to pursue this thread. So until then I will need to relax the certitude of my claims.
crazydoggers 10y ago
IHR is not a trustworthy source... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Rev... "The IHR is not regarded as conducting serious historical research by mainstream historians and academics but rather as conducting pseudo-science..."
- nkoren 10y ago
  Thank you for pointing this out. I unreservedly withdraw my citation!
  - tomcorrigan 10y ago
    Having withdrawn the citation you should either replace it with a better one or retract your assertion.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]