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> about how complex web dev is Isn't that part of the problem? Webdev is complex. But it feels to me like it's been overcomplicated by a factor of 100. It does

> about how complex web dev is Isn't that part of the problem? Webdev is complex. But it feels to me like it's been overcomplicated by a factor of 100. It doesn't have to be.

gaius 10y ago
Absolutely. At the end of the day you're doing some string substitutions then sending a text file over a socket. We were doing that in the early 90s! But to do it now we use these surreal Rube Goldberg contraptions with a hundred layers of abstraction.
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  And all programming itself is is turning strings of 1s and 0s into other strings of 1s and 0s. Asking web dev to be less complex is like asking financial markets to be simpler. Websites are market tools, tools have to retain a competitive edge. You can't afford to ignore market trends. You can't afford to wait until everything is well-defined. You can't let craftsmanship get in the way of shipping. You can buck the rules yourself and operate on whichever side of the tradeoff you want to operate in, but you can't expect everybody else to follow the same rules you do. I mean, if you don't like the web, then by all means find a different domain. I personally love it, and find it absolutely fascinating. With the right tools, (Rails) the complexity is manageable.
  - forrestthewoods 10y ago
    I don't think the web's complexities are intrinsic. It's layers and layers of crap built on top of crap. Computers are so mind numbingly fast that in some respects it's impressive we've made the web as slow as it is. Which isn't to say that the crap mountain wasn't the best choice. It may very well be the pragmatic choice. The highest net benefit choice. But I don't believe it's intrinsic. I don't believe it has to be this way. Which means it's at least worth considering alternate paths. Even if in the end we picked the same way. I work in video games. Currently working in VR. Where you absolutely must hit 90fps and never drop a frame. A certain degree of craftsmanship is required to ship. Layers and layers of abstraction on abstraction need not apply.
    - Psyonic 10y ago
      Sort of unrelated, but any suggestions for experienced backend developer who wants to get into VR? I'm working on learning 3D graphics and c++, but could use a bit of direction.
      - forrestthewoods 10y ago
        What's your goal exactly? Depending on your goal there's a few routes. If you want to produce compelling VR experiences then I'd recommend you download Unity. You should be able to start making real, valid prototypes for different types of VR interactions in under a week. If you want to graphics then I might recommend you poke at http://humus.name/index.php?page=3D http://humus.name/index.php?page=3D or https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx. But graphics isn't my specialty so my thoughts aren't the strongest. If you want to learn C++ then... that's an interesting question I've not thought of before. Maybe I'd start with "Learn C the Hard Way"? http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/ http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/ I'm not as much of a C fanboy/C++ hater as other game devs. I quite like C++11 lambdas and move semantics. But I hate boost and it's ilk. So starting with C and later adding a dash of C++ seems like a good way to start.
        gaius 10y ago
        Just as a side note I will add a piece of advice I wish I knew back in the day: learn C++ itself, not what I did which was to think I was doing that, but actually really only learn MFC (this applies to any framework or library, Qt etc etc). Having said that, the STL will stand you in good stead whatever you decide to do.
  - gaius 10y ago
    mean, if you don't like the web, then by all means find a different domain. I personally love it, and find it absolutely fascinating. With the right tools, (Rails) the complexity is manageable. I built my first website in 1994. I know the right tools. Rails is not one of them.
    - nicops 10y ago
      Curious. What do you suggest?
    - vinceguidry 10y ago
      Mine was around 1997. Want to compare penis sizes too?
Klathmon 10y ago
But at the end of the day aren't all platforms complicated. It's been a while since I did GUI programming on the desktop, but I remember it being so complex to build cross-platform applications that rolling your own cross-platform abstraction would be downright ludicrous. I think the parent commenters point is correct. People treat the web like it should be easy, like it should just be HTML, but its not. It's full of legacy stuff, it requires working on multiple "platforms" (browsers), it runs on all kinds of device sizes and shapes, and the applications being written for it are no longer trivial.
- majewsky 10y ago
  You should try Qt. It's always fun to write some open-source software, and find that someone ported it to Windows or Mac in a few minutes.
phamilton 10y ago
In my observation there are two things going on: 1) Broken platforms. How much "innovation" has occurred in javascript to compensate for a broken execution model? How much caching does your average rails app do because of the poor concurrency the the Ruby platform, requiring external services for persistence across requests? 2) Looking for challenging problems. Design patterns are often a solution to a meta problem. Building a CRUD app, there aren't too many hard domain. However, code maintenance is a hard problem. It involves many people using subjective judgement. So as a somewhat bored developer, I'm going to try to solve the meta problem. It sort of pains me to see how much engineering effort has gone into essentially making broken systems more performant and maintainable.

> about how complex web dev is Isn't that part of the problem? Webdev is complex. But it feels to me like it's been overcomplicated by a factor of 100. It doesn't have to be.

gaius 10y ago

Absolutely. At the end of the day you're doing some string substitutions then sending a text file over a socket. We were doing that in the early 90s! But to do it now we use these surreal Rube Goldberg contraptions with a hundred layers of abstraction.

vinceguidry 10y ago
And all programming itself is is turning strings of 1s and 0s into other strings of 1s and 0s. Asking web dev to be less complex is like asking financial markets to be simpler. Websites are market tools, tools have to retain a competitive edge. You can't afford to ignore market trends. You can't afford to wait until everything is well-defined. You can't let craftsmanship get in the way of shipping. You can buck the rules yourself and operate on whichever side of the tradeoff you want to operate in, but you can't expect everybody else to follow the same rules you do. I mean, if you don't like the web, then by all means find a different domain. I personally love it, and find it absolutely fascinating. With the right tools, (Rails) the complexity is manageable.
- forrestthewoods 10y ago
  I don't think the web's complexities are intrinsic. It's layers and layers of crap built on top of crap. Computers are so mind numbingly fast that in some respects it's impressive we've made the web as slow as it is. Which isn't to say that the crap mountain wasn't the best choice. It may very well be the pragmatic choice. The highest net benefit choice. But I don't believe it's intrinsic. I don't believe it has to be this way. Which means it's at least worth considering alternate paths. Even if in the end we picked the same way. I work in video games. Currently working in VR. Where you absolutely must hit 90fps and never drop a frame. A certain degree of craftsmanship is required to ship. Layers and layers of abstraction on abstraction need not apply.
  - Psyonic 10y ago
    Sort of unrelated, but any suggestions for experienced backend developer who wants to get into VR? I'm working on learning 3D graphics and c++, but could use a bit of direction.
    - forrestthewoods 10y ago
      What's your goal exactly? Depending on your goal there's a few routes. If you want to produce compelling VR experiences then I'd recommend you download Unity. You should be able to start making real, valid prototypes for different types of VR interactions in under a week. If you want to graphics then I might recommend you poke at http://humus.name/index.php?page=3D http://humus.name/index.php?page=3D or https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx. But graphics isn't my specialty so my thoughts aren't the strongest. If you want to learn C++ then... that's an interesting question I've not thought of before. Maybe I'd start with "Learn C the Hard Way"? http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/ http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/ I'm not as much of a C fanboy/C++ hater as other game devs. I quite like C++11 lambdas and move semantics. But I hate boost and it's ilk. So starting with C and later adding a dash of C++ seems like a good way to start.
      - gaius 10y ago
        Just as a side note I will add a piece of advice I wish I knew back in the day: learn C++ itself, not what I did which was to think I was doing that, but actually really only learn MFC (this applies to any framework or library, Qt etc etc). Having said that, the STL will stand you in good stead whatever you decide to do.
- gaius 10y ago
  mean, if you don't like the web, then by all means find a different domain. I personally love it, and find it absolutely fascinating. With the right tools, (Rails) the complexity is manageable. I built my first website in 1994. I know the right tools. Rails is not one of them.
  - nicops 10y ago
    Curious. What do you suggest?
  - vinceguidry 10y ago
    Mine was around 1997. Want to compare penis sizes too?

Klathmon 10y ago

But at the end of the day aren't all platforms complicated. It's been a while since I did GUI programming on the desktop, but I remember it being so complex to build cross-platform applications that rolling your own cross-platform abstraction would be downright ludicrous. I think the parent commenters point is correct. People treat the web like it should be easy, like it should just be HTML, but its not. It's full of legacy stuff, it requires working on multiple "platforms" (browsers), it runs on all kinds of device sizes and shapes, and the applications being written for it are no longer trivial.

majewsky 10y ago
You should try Qt. It's always fun to write some open-source software, and find that someone ported it to Windows or Mac in a few minutes.

phamilton 10y ago

In my observation there are two things going on: 1) Broken platforms. How much "innovation" has occurred in javascript to compensate for a broken execution model? How much caching does your average rails app do because of the poor concurrency the the Ruby platform, requiring external services for persistence across requests? 2) Looking for challenging problems. Design patterns are often a solution to a meta problem. Building a CRUD app, there aren't too many hard domain. However, code maintenance is a hard problem. It involves many people using subjective judgement. So as a somewhat bored developer, I'm going to try to solve the meta problem. It sort of pains me to see how much engineering effort has gone into essentially making broken systems more performant and maintainable.