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Whenever a story about Snowden is in the news, some people complain that some of the documents he released were "off topic". They accuse Snowden of releasing to

by pdkl95 10y ago

Whenever a story about Snowden is in the news, some people complain that some of the documents he released were "off topic". They accuse Snowden of releasing too much[1]. I agree, in an ideal world Snowden's bulk-copy methods shouldn't have been necessary. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world, and the "proper" methods of whistleblowing didn't work. When the proper methods fail, fallback methods are used. When legitimate channels fail, whistleblowing has to appel directly to the people. This is practically guaranteed to have collateral damage. Anyone who is angry with Snowden's methods should work hard to create safe and effective whistleblower mechanisms. [1] The cutoff point for "too much" varying with personal opinion.

MajesticHobo 10y ago
> Whenever a story about Snowden is in the news, some people complain that some of the documents he released were "off topic". Which is odd, because I personally have not found any of the Snowden publications off topic or unnecessary. When I press these people about what they think shouldn't have been published, they always give me vague answers about "military secrets" and the like without citing anything specific.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  There's a stage of disclosure prior to publication, where Snowden gave the documents to journalists. So it isn't necessarily possible to evaluate what he leaked by looking at what has been published. It's a problem that the internal whistleblowing mechanism isn't working, but contractors shouldn't be picking reporters that then filter national secrets.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    Why not? You use the word "should" without a good counterargument to the parent's point, that there was no other way to blow the whistle.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      I don't see where they made that point. Anyway, Snowden could have made sure to personally review everything he turned over. It's certainly an open question if such a leak could have been as effective, but it would obviously be an improvement in some ways.
      - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
        And how is it that Snowden is more qualified than reporters to do that? The implication behind your argument is that giving the information to the likes of Glen Greenwald was dangerous. Are you asserting that it was plausible Greenwald would have sold it to Al Qaeda?
        maxerickson 10y ago
        It's plausible Greenwald could have lost control of the documents (read http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/laura-poitras-snowden.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/laura-poitras-sno...). Snowden is hopefully more qualified along those lines. And yes, I do think that the person with security clearance minimizing their leak is a better than a reporter doing it.
        AnthonyMouse 10y ago
        > And yes, I do think that the person with security clearance minimizing their leak is a better than a reporter doing it. Isn't that what happened? Snowden didn't give Greenwald access to the NSA network. He chose a subset of the information. Even that subset was more than would be prudent to make public, but filtering it further is a labor intensive process beyond the capacity of one individual, so he chose people he reasoned could be trusted. It's not like the government would have provided a team of researchers with security clearances to help him sort it out.
        MaysonL 10y ago
        Do you really think that Snowden could have kept unencrypted documents secret while still avoiding arrest? Would he have been able to keep them away from the Russians, and been able to transmit them to trustworthy reporters?
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  Let's try not to be vague. In America, like many allies, it's entirely legal for spy agencies to spy on foreign countries and businesses. To support this, there's laws that enforce secrecy of what they do from targets to intel to methods used. Americans are mostly fine with this and even respected our spies outside instances of corrupt or foolish choices. So, public was OK with spying outside US within certain parameters like no IP theft. So, when Snowden leaks those things, he's leaking national secrets we used to maintain an edge over the competition that America was fine with. That's not whistleblowing as it reveals legal stuff Americabs implicitly agreed to supporting foreign spying. Just a crime that sets us back while others continue their espionage. I hope that was more specific. Such leaks are shy Snowden is partly a traitor who damaged our country. For domestic and some foreign leaks, he's a whistleblower that helped our country out a lot. I'm for lenient treatment, maybe immunity, given that. He should've learned from Manning that Dump It All (TM) was a terrible strategy with high consequences and inconsistent voter support. Future whistleblowers should focus on clear violations, corruption, and incompetence that everyone wants to stop far as voting public. Rest hurts credibility.
specialist 10y ago
"Whenever a story about Snowden is in the news, some people complain that..." Concern trolling, obfuscation. Ignore them.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
What are you talking about? Binney and Drake managed to whistleblow on just what was necessary without dumping our whole, foreign operations. Many other whistleblowers have also been selective. Snowden said he read and organized tge documents. So, releasing just the bad, domestic stuff plus key examples of foreign issues like Belgian telecom would be easy given it's a tiny fraction of what he already did. This isn't speculative: it's been done by other whistleblowers and he had time/resources to do it himself. He didn't. That's an evil or crime he has to own up to that's not whistleblowing.

by pdkl95 10y ago

MajesticHobo 10y ago

> Whenever a story about Snowden is in the news, some people complain that some of the documents he released were "off topic". Which is odd, because I personally have not found any of the Snowden publications off topic or unnecessary. When I press these people about what they think shouldn't have been published, they always give me vague answers about "military secrets" and the like without citing anything specific.

maxerickson 10y ago
There's a stage of disclosure prior to publication, where Snowden gave the documents to journalists. So it isn't necessarily possible to evaluate what he leaked by looking at what has been published. It's a problem that the internal whistleblowing mechanism isn't working, but contractors shouldn't be picking reporters that then filter national secrets.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  Why not? You use the word "should" without a good counterargument to the parent's point, that there was no other way to blow the whistle.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    I don't see where they made that point. Anyway, Snowden could have made sure to personally review everything he turned over. It's certainly an open question if such a leak could have been as effective, but it would obviously be an improvement in some ways.
    - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
      And how is it that Snowden is more qualified than reporters to do that? The implication behind your argument is that giving the information to the likes of Glen Greenwald was dangerous. Are you asserting that it was plausible Greenwald would have sold it to Al Qaeda?
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        It's plausible Greenwald could have lost control of the documents (read http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/laura-poitras-snowden.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/laura-poitras-sno...). Snowden is hopefully more qualified along those lines. And yes, I do think that the person with security clearance minimizing their leak is a better than a reporter doing it.
        AnthonyMouse 10y ago
        > And yes, I do think that the person with security clearance minimizing their leak is a better than a reporter doing it. Isn't that what happened? Snowden didn't give Greenwald access to the NSA network. He chose a subset of the information. Even that subset was more than would be prudent to make public, but filtering it further is a labor intensive process beyond the capacity of one individual, so he chose people he reasoned could be trusted. It's not like the government would have provided a team of researchers with security clearances to help him sort it out.
        MaysonL 10y ago
        Do you really think that Snowden could have kept unencrypted documents secret while still avoiding arrest? Would he have been able to keep them away from the Russians, and been able to transmit them to trustworthy reporters?
nickpsecurity 10y ago
Let's try not to be vague. In America, like many allies, it's entirely legal for spy agencies to spy on foreign countries and businesses. To support this, there's laws that enforce secrecy of what they do from targets to intel to methods used. Americans are mostly fine with this and even respected our spies outside instances of corrupt or foolish choices. So, public was OK with spying outside US within certain parameters like no IP theft. So, when Snowden leaks those things, he's leaking national secrets we used to maintain an edge over the competition that America was fine with. That's not whistleblowing as it reveals legal stuff Americabs implicitly agreed to supporting foreign spying. Just a crime that sets us back while others continue their espionage. I hope that was more specific. Such leaks are shy Snowden is partly a traitor who damaged our country. For domestic and some foreign leaks, he's a whistleblower that helped our country out a lot. I'm for lenient treatment, maybe immunity, given that. He should've learned from Manning that Dump It All (TM) was a terrible strategy with high consequences and inconsistent voter support. Future whistleblowers should focus on clear violations, corruption, and incompetence that everyone wants to stop far as voting public. Rest hurts credibility.

specialist 10y ago

"Whenever a story about Snowden is in the news, some people complain that..." Concern trolling, obfuscation. Ignore them.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

What are you talking about? Binney and Drake managed to whistleblow on just what was necessary without dumping our whole, foreign operations. Many other whistleblowers have also been selective. Snowden said he read and organized tge documents. So, releasing just the bad, domestic stuff plus key examples of foreign issues like Belgian telecom would be easy given it's a tiny fraction of what he already did. This isn't speculative: it's been done by other whistleblowers and he had time/resources to do it himself. He didn't. That's an evil or crime he has to own up to that's not whistleblowing.