7 ms·

I'm surprised there are still ATM cards without chips, and in Japan out of all places.

by imaginenore 10y ago

trendnet 10y ago
There're still fax machines in heavy use in Japan. It's a strange place.
- yedpodtrzitko 10y ago
  I was also surprised that flip-phones are a thing which a lot of people buy and use.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Fax machines are still present pretty much everywhere, especially in corporations and government facilities. When I've been working in the UK 5 years ago in a large research institution, I had a fax machine next to my desk. (The only thing it did though was activating once a day and printing out some ads, mostly car dealerships or insurances, AFAIR.)
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    Is fax spam not illegal in the UK? In the US, AFAIK, there is a potential $500 fine per unsolicited fax ad.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      I don't know. But the first time I saw it happening I went and shown it to my boss; she reacted like most people react to on-line ads. "Yeah, it does that."
    - jchrisa 10y ago
      I used to help my dad identify senders of spam faxes so we could get a court to issue summary judgment. I think the fine can be tripled if the violation is willful. Even with faxes from a whole bunch of his clients... as many as I could trace back to the sender, and then of course collecting the judgment isn't easy. So after all that, it was barely enough to pay me. I guess that is why you don't see folks going after the spammers as much.
the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
The cards were not Japanese but South African. I'm shocked though that the machines in Japan accept non pin cards.
- nihonde 10y ago
  Yeah, it's really odd. Only Post Office and 7-11 ATMs work with my non-PIN credit card. (Mine also has a chip, though.)
- yedpodtrzitko 10y ago
  7-Eleven and Post Offices are the only places which accept cards issued outside of Japan. I assume they have to cover all possible types of cards, otherwise people from other countries could get stuck without money here that way.
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    Some other combinis also accept foreign cards, but yes, getting money from a foreign credit/debit card in Japan can be difficult. I hope this doesn't make it even harder to do so.
- boondaburrah 10y ago
  The international ones (every 7-11 atm) have to accept everything. My Japanese card doesn't even have a magstripe, only chip and pin, so the hometown banks aren't as stupid as this may make them seem.
- frankzinger 10y ago
  South Africa has had chip-and-pin cards for a very long time, but like many other countries the magstripe was kept for compatibility with US cards (I was told). I used to think this was common the world over. Not so? (I know the US recently went chip-and-pin.)
jessriedel 10y ago
The timing of ATM chip deployment is determined by the region's rate of card fraud, not technological sophistication. There were significant transaction costs for the transition, and it made economic sense to roll them out sooner in places with higher rates for fraud, so, Europe before US. Not sure about how the rollout happened in Japan, but it makes sense that they haven't completed a transition given their very low crime rate.
- zzleeper 10y ago
  CC fraud in the US is/was waaaaay higher. Earlier EU adoption had to do with lower CC merchant fees..
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - seliopou 10y ago
    This is factually incorrect on two grounds: First, the adoption of Chip & Pin in Europe predates the European Union. Second, credit card fraud in Europe, France in particular, was out of control before its adoption. I believe it was either a French or Swiss researcher that developed the technology in response.
    - pcl 10y ago
      My understanding is that French (and presumably other European) banks assigned the liability for fraud to the account holder, whereas in the US, liability for fraudulent credit card charges falls to the banks and the credit card processing networks. This meant that individual account holders were much more tolerant of chip-and-pin technology, and demanded additional security features like portable card readers, which mean that the credit card never leaves the account holder's possession.
      - ams6110 10y ago
        In the US the liability for fraud is on the merchant accepting the card.
ojii 10y ago
Oh we're past chips, and have NFC enabled credit cards. Which is even worse, see http://privacy-pc.com/articles/hacking-in-the-far-east-7-too-near-field-communication.html http://privacy-pc.com/articles/hacking-in-the-far-east-7-too...
- gambiting 10y ago
  Contactless only lets you spend 25 pounds(so I guess $30-40) in a single transaction, you can only do 5 a day(until you have to enter the pin), and it's impossible to withdraw cash using it. The card also won't surrender its data without a valid decryption key from an authorized terminal. I have absolutely no idea how you can even describe contactless as "worse" in this case.
  - tim333 10y ago
    Yeah, 'the trade body said fraud via the cards was "extremely low", at less than one penny for every £100 spent.' (bbc)
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    Well if we're on the topic of Japan, contactless lets you spend 20,000 yen (125 GBP) in one transaction. Fraud is definitely a lesser concern in this country of lower crime rates. I'm afraid it will probably be tightened up as they globalise.

I'm surprised there are still ATM cards without chips, and in Japan out of all places.

trendnet 10y ago

There're still fax machines in heavy use in Japan. It's a strange place.

yedpodtrzitko 10y ago
I was also surprised that flip-phones are a thing which a lot of people buy and use.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
Fax machines are still present pretty much everywhere, especially in corporations and government facilities. When I've been working in the UK 5 years ago in a large research institution, I had a fax machine next to my desk. (The only thing it did though was activating once a day and printing out some ads, mostly car dealerships or insurances, AFAIR.)
- nitrogen 10y ago
  Is fax spam not illegal in the UK? In the US, AFAIK, there is a potential $500 fine per unsolicited fax ad.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    I don't know. But the first time I saw it happening I went and shown it to my boss; she reacted like most people react to on-line ads. "Yeah, it does that."
  - jchrisa 10y ago
    I used to help my dad identify senders of spam faxes so we could get a court to issue summary judgment. I think the fine can be tripled if the violation is willful. Even with faxes from a whole bunch of his clients... as many as I could trace back to the sender, and then of course collecting the judgment isn't easy. So after all that, it was barely enough to pay me. I guess that is why you don't see folks going after the spammers as much.

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago

The cards were not Japanese but South African. I'm shocked though that the machines in Japan accept non pin cards.

nihonde 10y ago
Yeah, it's really odd. Only Post Office and 7-11 ATMs work with my non-PIN credit card. (Mine also has a chip, though.)
yedpodtrzitko 10y ago
7-Eleven and Post Offices are the only places which accept cards issued outside of Japan. I assume they have to cover all possible types of cards, otherwise people from other countries could get stuck without money here that way.
- 77pt77 10y ago
  Some other combinis also accept foreign cards, but yes, getting money from a foreign credit/debit card in Japan can be difficult. I hope this doesn't make it even harder to do so.
boondaburrah 10y ago
The international ones (every 7-11 atm) have to accept everything. My Japanese card doesn't even have a magstripe, only chip and pin, so the hometown banks aren't as stupid as this may make them seem.
frankzinger 10y ago
South Africa has had chip-and-pin cards for a very long time, but like many other countries the magstripe was kept for compatibility with US cards (I was told). I used to think this was common the world over. Not so? (I know the US recently went chip-and-pin.)

jessriedel 10y ago

The timing of ATM chip deployment is determined by the region's rate of card fraud, not technological sophistication. There were significant transaction costs for the transition, and it made economic sense to roll them out sooner in places with higher rates for fraud, so, Europe before US. Not sure about how the rollout happened in Japan, but it makes sense that they haven't completed a transition given their very low crime rate.

zzleeper 10y ago
CC fraud in the US is/was waaaaay higher. Earlier EU adoption had to do with lower CC merchant fees..
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- seliopou 10y ago
  This is factually incorrect on two grounds: First, the adoption of Chip & Pin in Europe predates the European Union. Second, credit card fraud in Europe, France in particular, was out of control before its adoption. I believe it was either a French or Swiss researcher that developed the technology in response.
  - pcl 10y ago
    My understanding is that French (and presumably other European) banks assigned the liability for fraud to the account holder, whereas in the US, liability for fraudulent credit card charges falls to the banks and the credit card processing networks. This meant that individual account holders were much more tolerant of chip-and-pin technology, and demanded additional security features like portable card readers, which mean that the credit card never leaves the account holder's possession.
    - ams6110 10y ago
      In the US the liability for fraud is on the merchant accepting the card.

ojii 10y ago

Oh we're past chips, and have NFC enabled credit cards. Which is even worse, see http://privacy-pc.com/articles/hacking-in-the-far-east-7-too-near-field-communication.html http://privacy-pc.com/articles/hacking-in-the-far-east-7-too...

gambiting 10y ago
Contactless only lets you spend 25 pounds(so I guess $30-40) in a single transaction, you can only do 5 a day(until you have to enter the pin), and it's impossible to withdraw cash using it. The card also won't surrender its data without a valid decryption key from an authorized terminal. I have absolutely no idea how you can even describe contactless as "worse" in this case.
- tim333 10y ago
  Yeah, 'the trade body said fraud via the cards was "extremely low", at less than one penny for every £100 spent.' (bbc)
- kalleboo 10y ago
  Well if we're on the topic of Japan, contactless lets you spend 20,000 yen (125 GBP) in one transaction. Fraud is definitely a lesser concern in this country of lower crime rates. I'm afraid it will probably be tightened up as they globalise.