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It all started with the misguided bombing of Serbia. And tearing Kosovo from Serbia for no good reason.

by venomsnake 10y ago

Chos89 10y ago
I think genocide and mass deportions are a good enough reason
- dragandj 10y ago
  I think you are badly misinformed.
  - Chos89 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Civilians_killed_by_Yugoslav_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Civilians_killed_by... Plus, mass murders and other forms of ethnic cleansing also happened in Croatia
    - dragandj 10y ago
      Everything can be pushed or covered up by propaganda, but let's look at official census of Kosovo: Of course, you failed to mention, or didn't know, that only 50 years before the conflict, the ethnic structure was: 1953: 65% Albanians vs 23% Serbs In the eve of the 1999 bombing, it was: 1991: 82% Albanians vs 10% Serbs And after the bombing and separation: 2011: 93% Albanians vs 1.5% Serbs So, Albanians jumped from 65% to 93% and Serbs virtually disappeared from 23% to 1.5% in just 60 years. So, can you tell me - how's that explained? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo
      - Chos89 10y ago
        Looking at your table, from 1953 to 1991 number of serbs actually grew, it's just that number of albanians grew at a much higher rate, so their % increased. As to what happened in the next 10 years to the serbian population, I don't know, you suggesting that they were deported by the albanians?
- gozur88 10y ago
  Madeleine Albright got played by Kosovars who wanted the US to fight their revolution. What actually happened in Kosovo was grossly exaggerated both in magnitude and severity, wasn't at all one-sided, and in any case wasn't enough to justify NATO involvement on humanitarian grounds.
- venomsnake 10y ago
  Bill Clinton needing short victorious war to clean his image because of the Lewinsky affair is better reason too. If the ones you mentioned were good enough - Rwanda would not have happened.
ptaipale 10y ago
"It all started with bombing" sounds pretty disingenuous in a situation that has been brewing over the last few thousands of years, from Greeks to Romans to medieval period with Byzantine, then the Ottomans, and more recently various Communist and Fascist factions having power, and one thing having dependency on another. No, it didn't start with the bombing of Serbia, and you could as well blame it for lack of bombing or intervention (after all, the bombing was what actually stopped a mass murder of Muslims.) But if you want to find the one thing that most recently is destabilizing things, it is funding to salafists.
- dragandj 10y ago
  Isn't any such problem brewing for thousands of years? Mass murder of Muslims is a problematic statement. On one hand, any situation where there is more than a few dozen or a couple hundred deaths could be considered a mass murder, but on the other - which conflict/war doesn't come with that? Not to mention that the noumbers that were reported by CNN were a heavy propaganda. Kosovo conflict was one example of Balkan conflict that did not bring death even close on the scale of other conflict. Now, the finale: during the war, propaganda said 100,000 dead. After the war, the count stopped at 3,000 (the population was roughly under 2 million) [1] And, there are roughly 1,000 missing Serb civilians that were taken by albanian rebels/terrorists and used for organ transplants. [1]http://www.newstatesman.com/node/138456 http://www.newstatesman.com/node/138456 [2]English wikipedia as the further reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Yes, any ethnic conflict has typically been brewing for thousands of years. Particularly one in the Balkans. Therefore claims that "it all started with" something in 1999 is disingenuous. I see this as an attempt to justify or belittle the organized ethnically/religiously motivated murders of Muslim men in Kosovo, and then when that was stopped by Western nations, somehow being responsible for starting the radicalization of the said Muslim population. As said, a larger responsibility lies with the salafists. THe parent comment looks like classic, cheap propaganda to me -- complete with mostly fabricated organ harvesting accusations, similar to the ones often made against Israel. Regarding that "roughly 1,000 missing Serb civilians that were taken by albanian rebels/terrorists and used for organ transplants", the Wikipedia article referred actually says: > In July 2014, Clint Williamson, the lead prosecutor with the task force, told a press conference in Brussels that unnamed “senior officials of the former Kosovo Liberation Army” will face indictments for crimes against humanity and other abuses. He said there were “compelling indications” that “a few individuals were killed with the intention of extracting their organs” by KLA fighters, but the allegations that hundreds of prisoners were killed and their organs sold was “totally unsupported”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft_in_Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft_in_Kosovo
cm2187 10y ago
Because every population should have the right to make secession. Hold on, wait, not every population, not in Ukraine. The historians who will try to make sense of Western diplomacy in the late XX / early XXI century will have a hard time. Take the UK: let's bomb Al Assad, he is our worst enemy, and let's support the rebels against Al Assad. Two years later: my god these rebels are islamists, they are our worst enemies. Let's bomb the rebels and support Al Assad against ISIS! What mathematicians call a random walk...
- ptaipale 10y ago
  It's not particularly unique that someone who you see as an ally at one point is an enemy a short while later. Britain and France were on the brink of declaring war to USSR (then an ally of Nazi Germany) in 1940. Sixteen months later in mid-1941, they were allies with USSR in war against Germany, until 1945. And then the Iron Curtain fell, and just four years later NATO was formed to again counter the threat from USSR. Such changes are in no way restricted to late 20th century.
- aries1980 10y ago
  > Because every population should have the right to make secession. I hardly see evidence in the history when such rights were granted without prior terror or occupation of a foreign army. In Europe, multinational countries could live together while the people could maintain their ethnicity. Nowadays, with the nation states, people has much less freedom in this regard they had prior the national movements of the 19th century.

It all started with the misguided bombing of Serbia. And tearing Kosovo from Serbia for no good reason.

Chos89 10y ago

I think genocide and mass deportions are a good enough reason

dragandj 10y ago
I think you are badly misinformed.
- Chos89 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Civilians_killed_by_Yugoslav_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Civilians_killed_by... Plus, mass murders and other forms of ethnic cleansing also happened in Croatia
  - dragandj 10y ago
    Everything can be pushed or covered up by propaganda, but let's look at official census of Kosovo: Of course, you failed to mention, or didn't know, that only 50 years before the conflict, the ethnic structure was: 1953: 65% Albanians vs 23% Serbs In the eve of the 1999 bombing, it was: 1991: 82% Albanians vs 10% Serbs And after the bombing and separation: 2011: 93% Albanians vs 1.5% Serbs So, Albanians jumped from 65% to 93% and Serbs virtually disappeared from 23% to 1.5% in just 60 years. So, can you tell me - how's that explained? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo
    - Chos89 10y ago
      Looking at your table, from 1953 to 1991 number of serbs actually grew, it's just that number of albanians grew at a much higher rate, so their % increased. As to what happened in the next 10 years to the serbian population, I don't know, you suggesting that they were deported by the albanians?
gozur88 10y ago
Madeleine Albright got played by Kosovars who wanted the US to fight their revolution. What actually happened in Kosovo was grossly exaggerated both in magnitude and severity, wasn't at all one-sided, and in any case wasn't enough to justify NATO involvement on humanitarian grounds.
venomsnake 10y ago
Bill Clinton needing short victorious war to clean his image because of the Lewinsky affair is better reason too. If the ones you mentioned were good enough - Rwanda would not have happened.

ptaipale 10y ago

"It all started with bombing" sounds pretty disingenuous in a situation that has been brewing over the last few thousands of years, from Greeks to Romans to medieval period with Byzantine, then the Ottomans, and more recently various Communist and Fascist factions having power, and one thing having dependency on another. No, it didn't start with the bombing of Serbia, and you could as well blame it for lack of bombing or intervention (after all, the bombing was what actually stopped a mass murder of Muslims.) But if you want to find the one thing that most recently is destabilizing things, it is funding to salafists.

dragandj 10y ago
Isn't any such problem brewing for thousands of years? Mass murder of Muslims is a problematic statement. On one hand, any situation where there is more than a few dozen or a couple hundred deaths could be considered a mass murder, but on the other - which conflict/war doesn't come with that? Not to mention that the noumbers that were reported by CNN were a heavy propaganda. Kosovo conflict was one example of Balkan conflict that did not bring death even close on the scale of other conflict. Now, the finale: during the war, propaganda said 100,000 dead. After the war, the count stopped at 3,000 (the population was roughly under 2 million) [1] And, there are roughly 1,000 missing Serb civilians that were taken by albanian rebels/terrorists and used for organ transplants. [1]http://www.newstatesman.com/node/138456 http://www.newstatesman.com/node/138456 [2]English wikipedia as the further reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Yes, any ethnic conflict has typically been brewing for thousands of years. Particularly one in the Balkans. Therefore claims that "it all started with" something in 1999 is disingenuous. I see this as an attempt to justify or belittle the organized ethnically/religiously motivated murders of Muslim men in Kosovo, and then when that was stopped by Western nations, somehow being responsible for starting the radicalization of the said Muslim population. As said, a larger responsibility lies with the salafists. THe parent comment looks like classic, cheap propaganda to me -- complete with mostly fabricated organ harvesting accusations, similar to the ones often made against Israel. Regarding that "roughly 1,000 missing Serb civilians that were taken by albanian rebels/terrorists and used for organ transplants", the Wikipedia article referred actually says: > In July 2014, Clint Williamson, the lead prosecutor with the task force, told a press conference in Brussels that unnamed “senior officials of the former Kosovo Liberation Army” will face indictments for crimes against humanity and other abuses. He said there were “compelling indications” that “a few individuals were killed with the intention of extracting their organs” by KLA fighters, but the allegations that hundreds of prisoners were killed and their organs sold was “totally unsupported”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft_in_Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft_in_Kosovo

cm2187 10y ago

Because every population should have the right to make secession. Hold on, wait, not every population, not in Ukraine. The historians who will try to make sense of Western diplomacy in the late XX / early XXI century will have a hard time. Take the UK: let's bomb Al Assad, he is our worst enemy, and let's support the rebels against Al Assad. Two years later: my god these rebels are islamists, they are our worst enemies. Let's bomb the rebels and support Al Assad against ISIS! What mathematicians call a random walk...

ptaipale 10y ago
It's not particularly unique that someone who you see as an ally at one point is an enemy a short while later. Britain and France were on the brink of declaring war to USSR (then an ally of Nazi Germany) in 1940. Sixteen months later in mid-1941, they were allies with USSR in war against Germany, until 1945. And then the Iron Curtain fell, and just four years later NATO was formed to again counter the threat from USSR. Such changes are in no way restricted to late 20th century.
aries1980 10y ago
> Because every population should have the right to make secession. I hardly see evidence in the history when such rights were granted without prior terror or occupation of a foreign army. In Europe, multinational countries could live together while the people could maintain their ethnicity. Nowadays, with the nation states, people has much less freedom in this regard they had prior the national movements of the 19th century.