4 ms·

>>By traveling, you see a lot of different viewpoints of average people around the world. But by reading, you get to see into the minds of the greatest people w

by tmptmp 10y ago

>>By traveling, you see a lot of different viewpoints of average people around the world. But by reading, you get to see into the minds of the greatest people who ever lived. Agreed and today we can read the great works almost freely thanks to projects like Gutenberg [1] and Internet Archive [2]. So, essentially you don't need to spend $200k for this type of knowledge. I have educated myself thanks to the books on these sites. Of course, I didn't get access to the network of people that a Harvard graduate might seem to have. So, you have to figure out if it is worth to spend $200k or whatever to have access to that network. [1] http://www.gutenberg.org/ http://www.gutenberg.org/ [2] https://archive.org/ https://archive.org/

ahussain 10y ago
It's not just reading though. Most of the value in a good liberal arts education comes from discussion with peers, and professors guiding the reading in a way that helps to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. Many 'great thinkers' cannot just be picked up off the shelf.
- ktRolster 10y ago
  And indeed, in being forced to read things you'd rather not read.
- tmptmp 10y ago
  Yes the discussions and debates do help. But this can also be had today with high quality forums (e.g. HN forum, google groups etc). >>Many 'great thinkers' cannot just be picked up off the shelf. That's where a little bit of internet literacy (mainly the google-fu skills) helps a lot. It's not that difficult to acquire it either. If you acquire these skills (e.g. in your high school) then finding great thinkers is not so much of a problem. In fact, I did it exactly in such a manner: I am from a third world Asian country, where such great professors are mostly non-existent or if they do exist they are almost always inaccessible to poor people like me. So, what did I do? I struggled with Google for some time, and with the help of some sites I acquired the immensely important google-fu skills. Then I landed on the Wikipedia knowledge-galaxy. From there the access to 'great thinkers' was just a click away. As far as discussions and debates are concerned, then I read books presenting opposing views on important issues like religion, economics and politics. e.g. In case of religion the theists' point of views, Bible, Quran etc on one hand and Plato's dialogues, Darwin's theory, Voltaire, Khalil Jibran, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris on the other hand; Marx's Das Capital and communist manifesto on one hand and criticism of Marx and Atlas Shrugged on the other. I engage in online debates on forums like this. Thanks to today's internet and the sites like the ones I mentioned in the earlier comment on this thread, a person who has far less money than $200K (hardly $2500 per year) can actually acquire so much knowledge. It's not bragging though, as the same knowledge has made me more humbled too.
  - internaut 10y ago
    That's a good insight. I endorse your reading strategy, if only more people used it! I think our society is still struggling to deal with the fact that the information distribution just suddenly stopped being a concern. You just spent 150 grand on an education you could have gotten for $1.50 in late fees at the public library. - Will, Good Will Hunting It is much easier to grasp the network of knowledge that exists when you have Wikipedia and forums like HN. Having context is important because it helps direct you. Being part of the tribe is immensely important if you're to be motivated over decades. The main problems now are motivation and focus. I am confident these are solvable problems but there's a lot of people out there who haven't even heard of Wikipedia. They're not ready for it yet. I am much less worried about the Net than what the Television did to us. The Net is intrinsically deeper than the Television. There is a sports commentator called Joe Rogan who expresses this well. He often exclaims how much of a knucklehead (his own words) he was before the Internet. It opened up a new vista to him. Not everybody will be as immediately perceptive as Rogan but I see even people who limited technology skills gradually enhancing their comprehension on a range of issues. It won't lead to utopia but it will definitely make the future more interesting, and ultimately that's all I ask of any technology.
- paganel 10y ago
  > Many 'great thinkers' cannot just be picked up off the shelf If they are that great yes, they can. Great thinkers should put into words stuff that it's believed to be general truths, no matter how you phrase them. You don't need a Harvard education to "get" Rousseau nor Hobbes. And on top that we have guys like Epicurus, who ~2,300 years ago was saying that his education had been bollocks and that he hadn't learned anything from his professors, but who nevertheless managed to have quite an influence on Western philosophy and thought.
- digler999 10y ago
  if the great humanities works are so easily "confused and misunderstood" maybe they weren't that great to begin with? Isn't clarity the first priority if you write anything, much less a novel ?
  - philippoi 10y ago
    Some things are written to be clear only within the proper context and with the reader's ability to see into them. I remember being blown away at learning the political context of the early modern English literature cannon in college by a really talented and dedicated professor. It was clear from that experience how much otherwise illegal/treasonous critique authors could get away with publishing just by being sufficiently obscure. On the other hand, I also think there are simply things that aren't well conveyed without relying on advanced techniques, whether the field in question is food, sport, art, etc. There is some value to esoteric works. Naturally, not as many people will appreciate them. This is potentially reflected in the original article: sure, such non-obvious skill-sets can be applied to great effect by certain individuals, but what causes that "creative" application? It's certainly not answered in the original piece, among other dangling questions not really addressed at all.
- DarkContinent 10y ago
  Peer discussions in liberal arts classes aren't of great quality at most universities. Although I certainly would agree that thoughtful conversations in the humanities are good things, they are rare to find in a typical university where liberal arts is pushed on students because "they can't handle STEM". Even if the conversations WERE of good educational quality, are they truly worth the extra time to graduation that they entail? Remember, the $100K pricetag on four years at a state flagship is borne mostly by middle-class kids trying to improve their chances at good careers. Bureaucrats forcing them to take unnecessary liberal arts classes are important players in today's storied student loan crisis.
ktRolster 10y ago
"Have you read the Iliad? If not, you are not a man; you are a boy."
- tmptmp 10y ago
  >>"Have you read the Iliad? If not, you are not a man; you are a boy." I have read Homer's works along with some other Greek classics.

by tmptmp 10y ago

ahussain 10y ago

It's not just reading though. Most of the value in a good liberal arts education comes from discussion with peers, and professors guiding the reading in a way that helps to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. Many 'great thinkers' cannot just be picked up off the shelf.

ktRolster 10y ago
And indeed, in being forced to read things you'd rather not read.
tmptmp 10y ago
Yes the discussions and debates do help. But this can also be had today with high quality forums (e.g. HN forum, google groups etc). >>Many 'great thinkers' cannot just be picked up off the shelf. That's where a little bit of internet literacy (mainly the google-fu skills) helps a lot. It's not that difficult to acquire it either. If you acquire these skills (e.g. in your high school) then finding great thinkers is not so much of a problem. In fact, I did it exactly in such a manner: I am from a third world Asian country, where such great professors are mostly non-existent or if they do exist they are almost always inaccessible to poor people like me. So, what did I do? I struggled with Google for some time, and with the help of some sites I acquired the immensely important google-fu skills. Then I landed on the Wikipedia knowledge-galaxy. From there the access to 'great thinkers' was just a click away. As far as discussions and debates are concerned, then I read books presenting opposing views on important issues like religion, economics and politics. e.g. In case of religion the theists' point of views, Bible, Quran etc on one hand and Plato's dialogues, Darwin's theory, Voltaire, Khalil Jibran, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris on the other hand; Marx's Das Capital and communist manifesto on one hand and criticism of Marx and Atlas Shrugged on the other. I engage in online debates on forums like this. Thanks to today's internet and the sites like the ones I mentioned in the earlier comment on this thread, a person who has far less money than $200K (hardly $2500 per year) can actually acquire so much knowledge. It's not bragging though, as the same knowledge has made me more humbled too.
- internaut 10y ago
  That's a good insight. I endorse your reading strategy, if only more people used it! I think our society is still struggling to deal with the fact that the information distribution just suddenly stopped being a concern. You just spent 150 grand on an education you could have gotten for $1.50 in late fees at the public library. - Will, Good Will Hunting It is much easier to grasp the network of knowledge that exists when you have Wikipedia and forums like HN. Having context is important because it helps direct you. Being part of the tribe is immensely important if you're to be motivated over decades. The main problems now are motivation and focus. I am confident these are solvable problems but there's a lot of people out there who haven't even heard of Wikipedia. They're not ready for it yet. I am much less worried about the Net than what the Television did to us. The Net is intrinsically deeper than the Television. There is a sports commentator called Joe Rogan who expresses this well. He often exclaims how much of a knucklehead (his own words) he was before the Internet. It opened up a new vista to him. Not everybody will be as immediately perceptive as Rogan but I see even people who limited technology skills gradually enhancing their comprehension on a range of issues. It won't lead to utopia but it will definitely make the future more interesting, and ultimately that's all I ask of any technology.
paganel 10y ago
> Many 'great thinkers' cannot just be picked up off the shelf If they are that great yes, they can. Great thinkers should put into words stuff that it's believed to be general truths, no matter how you phrase them. You don't need a Harvard education to "get" Rousseau nor Hobbes. And on top that we have guys like Epicurus, who ~2,300 years ago was saying that his education had been bollocks and that he hadn't learned anything from his professors, but who nevertheless managed to have quite an influence on Western philosophy and thought.
digler999 10y ago
if the great humanities works are so easily "confused and misunderstood" maybe they weren't that great to begin with? Isn't clarity the first priority if you write anything, much less a novel ?
- philippoi 10y ago
  Some things are written to be clear only within the proper context and with the reader's ability to see into them. I remember being blown away at learning the political context of the early modern English literature cannon in college by a really talented and dedicated professor. It was clear from that experience how much otherwise illegal/treasonous critique authors could get away with publishing just by being sufficiently obscure. On the other hand, I also think there are simply things that aren't well conveyed without relying on advanced techniques, whether the field in question is food, sport, art, etc. There is some value to esoteric works. Naturally, not as many people will appreciate them. This is potentially reflected in the original article: sure, such non-obvious skill-sets can be applied to great effect by certain individuals, but what causes that "creative" application? It's certainly not answered in the original piece, among other dangling questions not really addressed at all.
DarkContinent 10y ago
Peer discussions in liberal arts classes aren't of great quality at most universities. Although I certainly would agree that thoughtful conversations in the humanities are good things, they are rare to find in a typical university where liberal arts is pushed on students because "they can't handle STEM". Even if the conversations WERE of good educational quality, are they truly worth the extra time to graduation that they entail? Remember, the $100K pricetag on four years at a state flagship is borne mostly by middle-class kids trying to improve their chances at good careers. Bureaucrats forcing them to take unnecessary liberal arts classes are important players in today's storied student loan crisis.

ktRolster 10y ago

"Have you read the Iliad? If not, you are not a man; you are a boy."

tmptmp 10y ago
>>"Have you read the Iliad? If not, you are not a man; you are a boy." I have read Homer's works along with some other Greek classics.