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I'm presuming the difference is that they're kids at a tennis academy. Someone is presumably paying good money for them to be there, and by the time they becom

I'm presuming the difference is that they're kids at a tennis academy. Someone is presumably paying good money for them to be there, and by the time they become professionals, they'll have spent XX years already in training, with someone else presumably working and funding their entire stay/attendance. This then presumes that those kids who do actually make it to the pro circuit aren't then the ones that also have the advantages and put in extra above and beyond the other kids (and with a little bit of luck on top). Now, I don't know what other people's life was like growing up. I mentioned in my other comments that conceivably there are some kids who had parents who both supply them with knowledge, fund their study, their lifestyle, gave them opportunities and access, and that such people might subsequently have greater abilities than myself, and maybe those people will become top notch coders even with some hobbies and time on the side. But no one is paying to have me (or others) learn to code or update my skills. No one is paying to send me to a training camp or academy. I taught myself computers and I know many others did too. There was/were limited academies when I grew up, and there aren't any pros for us to learn from except ourselves now. Many of us aren't paid to do our coding or our study, many workplaces or academies aren't even interested in that kind of coding or study. And, of course we burn out. No shit. But that doesn't mean that if you don't want to become top rate you don't have to put in more than a paltry 8 hour workday. Indeed, EVERY decent coder I've known has done it. Not a single one I know hasn't. I have not met any decent coder that hasn't been doing their own thing on their own time and that wasn't interesting and successful in teaching themselves in their own time. The tennis kids have someone else to put in a workday so they can then spend hours per week at a leisure activity. Unless we are very lucky, we spend our work/school day so we can ferret away the time and resources to focus on the stuff we actually value, and then that knowledge then gets transmitted back to the workplace...

awinder 10y ago
"But no one is paying to have me (or others) learn to code or update my skills. No one is paying to send me to a training camp or academy." Many workplaces offer professional development budgets to attend conferences / training, many also offer reimbursement for continuing education. Additionally one of the smartest things you can do at your job is find promising tech that has applications at work. I've been getting paid to learn for almost my entire career, along with my coworkers, so this comment seemed really out of place with my experience anyways
kd5bjo 10y ago
> This then presumes that those kids who do actually make it to the pro circuit aren't then the ones that also have the advantages and put in extra above and beyond the other kids (and with a little bit of luck on top). This was my point: the kids that figure out how to put in extra effort during scheduled training will rise above the rest; ones that try to train during scheduled rest periods start to fall behind because they're not getting enough rest.
- Retric 10y ago
  This is what most people forget. 40 hours a week is a lot of time. There is this odd mindset where people waste most of the day, and then work late as if that's somehow the only way to get things done. Instead your much better off putting in a solid 8 at a company that does not waste time, and then going home to do other things. If you end up in a job where you can't work for 35+ hours a week during normal business hours don't stay late, find a new job.
CydeWeys 10y ago
> But no one is paying to have me (or others) learn to code or update my skills. It's part of your job to be good at what you do. That does involve getting better at programming, updating your skills, keeping abreast of the newest frameworks, and learning new languages. So do it at work. If you're spending every hour of every week at work only working on the exact project in front of you, then you are doing both yourself and your employer a disservice, as you'll have lost the broad picture, and failed to solve many problems the easy way by applying a technique or tool that you could have been aware of, but weren't. I have solved Project Euler-style questions at work and don't feel the slightest bit guilty about it. It'd be like yelling at a baseball player for practicing his throw.
- JamesBarney 10y ago
  This sounds great but I don't think this is standard for most companies, at least none I've worked at. But I'd love if it were added to the joel list.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    It doesn't matter what is standard at most companies, you just do it. It'll work fine unless you have a taskmaster looking over your shoulder the entire time you're at work, or a micromanager who demands that you account for your time in hourly increments. And if those things are true then you should quite for reasons.

awinder 10y ago

"But no one is paying to have me (or others) learn to code or update my skills. No one is paying to send me to a training camp or academy." Many workplaces offer professional development budgets to attend conferences / training, many also offer reimbursement for continuing education. Additionally one of the smartest things you can do at your job is find promising tech that has applications at work. I've been getting paid to learn for almost my entire career, along with my coworkers, so this comment seemed really out of place with my experience anyways

kd5bjo 10y ago

> This then presumes that those kids who do actually make it to the pro circuit aren't then the ones that also have the advantages and put in extra above and beyond the other kids (and with a little bit of luck on top). This was my point: the kids that figure out how to put in extra effort during scheduled training will rise above the rest; ones that try to train during scheduled rest periods start to fall behind because they're not getting enough rest.

Retric 10y ago
This is what most people forget. 40 hours a week is a lot of time. There is this odd mindset where people waste most of the day, and then work late as if that's somehow the only way to get things done. Instead your much better off putting in a solid 8 at a company that does not waste time, and then going home to do other things. If you end up in a job where you can't work for 35+ hours a week during normal business hours don't stay late, find a new job.

CydeWeys 10y ago

> But no one is paying to have me (or others) learn to code or update my skills. It's part of your job to be good at what you do. That does involve getting better at programming, updating your skills, keeping abreast of the newest frameworks, and learning new languages. So do it at work. If you're spending every hour of every week at work only working on the exact project in front of you, then you are doing both yourself and your employer a disservice, as you'll have lost the broad picture, and failed to solve many problems the easy way by applying a technique or tool that you could have been aware of, but weren't. I have solved Project Euler-style questions at work and don't feel the slightest bit guilty about it. It'd be like yelling at a baseball player for practicing his throw.

JamesBarney 10y ago
This sounds great but I don't think this is standard for most companies, at least none I've worked at. But I'd love if it were added to the joel list.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  It doesn't matter what is standard at most companies, you just do it. It'll work fine unless you have a taskmaster looking over your shoulder the entire time you're at work, or a micromanager who demands that you account for your time in hourly increments. And if those things are true then you should quite for reasons.