4 ms·

Maybe poverty-alleviation doesn't work. Maybe people's attitudes need to change. When people were poor 100 years ago, they didn't wait around for government ha

Maybe poverty-alleviation doesn't work. Maybe people's attitudes need to change. When people were poor 100 years ago, they didn't wait around for government handouts. They worked hard, and got out of where they were to go to places with more opportunity. That's how poverty-alleviation actually works.

jryan49 10y ago
Sure, cause things haven't change at all over the past 100 years. Working hard gets you a lot less now than it used to.
jkyle 10y ago
Or they starved to death. With their kids. Or they started selling themselves or their children to get by. If you go back a little further than 100 years (in the U.S. anyway). They were also relatively likely to get together a bunch of folks with guns and weapons and murder men, women, and children and take their land to make their own. I'm not sure the hutzpa of 100 and 200 years ago is exactly what we should aspire to.
- trgn 10y ago
  It's gotten harder to be both poor and self-sufficient. There was rampant poverty in the olden days, but you could be a lot more resourceful when you were a poor farmer in the Piedmont 60 years ago, than when you're a poor service worker in suburban Atlanta today.
mjevans 10y ago
That may be how it worked before, but that isn't how it works now. It is actually incredibly, mindbogglingly, difficult for someone who can't even get a job where they live -now- to relocate to someplace completely unknown with zero resources and no job even lined up. In the old days if you were willing to do something lower end there was always /some/ job you could get. That isn't the case today, and the jobs that used to pay enough for someone to get by don't. (I blame rampant inflation in cost and deflation in wages over time)
- ChrisLomont 10y ago
  >I blame rampant inflation in cost and deflation in wages over time Inflation adjusted wages are near all time highs for all quintiles [1]. [1] http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-Income-Distribution.php http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-...
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Inflation adjusted wages are near all time highs for all quintiles [1]. Nope, that's inflation adjusted household income. Wages (what one gets paid per unit of work) are significantly down from the peak in the 1970s. http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/commentaries/Average-Hourly-Wage-Trends.php http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/commentaries/Avera...
    - ChrisLomont 10y ago
      From your own source - the peak was Jan 1978, around $22/hr, which was a small blurb, and more significantly, before women entered the workforce in droves. The pay at 2014 was $19.17/hr. Since 2014, real wages have increased (see BLS data) and are still increasing. And even the 2014 rate of $19/hr is higher than all but a few years in that entire chart. And wages is not the same as total remuneration, which has also increased, due to many non-wage benefits companies have added since 1978. See the time series "Total cost to employ" in BLS data to see that. Finally, demographics also change - the workforce is getting younger (as people are earlier in careers) ad boomers retire, lowering average wage while individuals are still better off. You can dig this out of census and BLS data also. So, how is this "rampant inflation in cost and deflation in wages over time". It's nearly flat for a long time, and significantly better than the decades before that. You called it rampant inflation as well as deflation in wages. To go from $22 to $19 over almost 30 years (completely ignoring the other relevant factors) is not a very big inflation or deflation effect whatsoever. Do the math.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > From your own source - the peak was Jan 1978, around $22/hr 1973 for the broad, cross-industry peak. (1978 was the peak for wages restricted to manufacturing.) > which was a small blurb. Both the broader and manufacturing measures were above their present levels at least a decade (nearly two for the manufacturing measure you fixated on) around their peak. > And even the 2014 rate of $19/hr is higher than all but a few years in that entire chart. Its lower than 1971-1989. > Since 2014, real wages have increased (see BLS data) and are still increasing. And then we can talk about the distribution of the recent gains... [0] [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-wor...
xenihn 10y ago
>They worked hard, and got out of where they were to go to places with more opportunity. So where are you suggesting that they go?
newobj 10y ago
People who dig ditches work 10x harder than me, yet I make 10x more money than they do. So how does this fact fit into your bullshit story?

jryan49 10y ago

Sure, cause things haven't change at all over the past 100 years. Working hard gets you a lot less now than it used to.

jkyle 10y ago

Or they starved to death. With their kids. Or they started selling themselves or their children to get by. If you go back a little further than 100 years (in the U.S. anyway). They were also relatively likely to get together a bunch of folks with guns and weapons and murder men, women, and children and take their land to make their own. I'm not sure the hutzpa of 100 and 200 years ago is exactly what we should aspire to.

trgn 10y ago
It's gotten harder to be both poor and self-sufficient. There was rampant poverty in the olden days, but you could be a lot more resourceful when you were a poor farmer in the Piedmont 60 years ago, than when you're a poor service worker in suburban Atlanta today.

mjevans 10y ago

That may be how it worked before, but that isn't how it works now. It is actually incredibly, mindbogglingly, difficult for someone who can't even get a job where they live -now- to relocate to someplace completely unknown with zero resources and no job even lined up. In the old days if you were willing to do something lower end there was always /some/ job you could get. That isn't the case today, and the jobs that used to pay enough for someone to get by don't. (I blame rampant inflation in cost and deflation in wages over time)

ChrisLomont 10y ago
>I blame rampant inflation in cost and deflation in wages over time Inflation adjusted wages are near all time highs for all quintiles [1]. [1] http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-Income-Distribution.php http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-...
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Inflation adjusted wages are near all time highs for all quintiles [1]. Nope, that's inflation adjusted household income. Wages (what one gets paid per unit of work) are significantly down from the peak in the 1970s. http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/commentaries/Average-Hourly-Wage-Trends.php http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/commentaries/Avera...
  - ChrisLomont 10y ago
    From your own source - the peak was Jan 1978, around $22/hr, which was a small blurb, and more significantly, before women entered the workforce in droves. The pay at 2014 was $19.17/hr. Since 2014, real wages have increased (see BLS data) and are still increasing. And even the 2014 rate of $19/hr is higher than all but a few years in that entire chart. And wages is not the same as total remuneration, which has also increased, due to many non-wage benefits companies have added since 1978. See the time series "Total cost to employ" in BLS data to see that. Finally, demographics also change - the workforce is getting younger (as people are earlier in careers) ad boomers retire, lowering average wage while individuals are still better off. You can dig this out of census and BLS data also. So, how is this "rampant inflation in cost and deflation in wages over time". It's nearly flat for a long time, and significantly better than the decades before that. You called it rampant inflation as well as deflation in wages. To go from $22 to $19 over almost 30 years (completely ignoring the other relevant factors) is not a very big inflation or deflation effect whatsoever. Do the math.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > From your own source - the peak was Jan 1978, around $22/hr 1973 for the broad, cross-industry peak. (1978 was the peak for wages restricted to manufacturing.) > which was a small blurb. Both the broader and manufacturing measures were above their present levels at least a decade (nearly two for the manufacturing measure you fixated on) around their peak. > And even the 2014 rate of $19/hr is higher than all but a few years in that entire chart. Its lower than 1971-1989. > Since 2014, real wages have increased (see BLS data) and are still increasing. And then we can talk about the distribution of the recent gains... [0] [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-wor...

xenihn 10y ago

>They worked hard, and got out of where they were to go to places with more opportunity. So where are you suggesting that they go?

newobj 10y ago

People who dig ditches work 10x harder than me, yet I make 10x more money than they do. So how does this fact fit into your bullshit story?