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I am really disappointed in the HN commentary on this one. A quarter of the commenters seem to have stopped reading when they saw the anime criticism. Half came

I am really disappointed in the HN commentary on this one. A quarter of the commenters seem to have stopped reading when they saw the anime criticism. Half came in here to say that the guy sounds boring. And the remainder is split between talking about patio11 (what the fuck is that?) and how long the article was. Most of the criticism here seems to boil down to the same "you're not Japanese" bullshit the author mentions in the piece itself. Is that really the best we can do? This is probably the worst-commented article I've seen since I started at HN. I agree with others that the anime point is probably off-target. Nostalgia is a big component of thinking things used to be better than they are. The insights into Japanese company-culture are fascinating. American corporations do make people do some incredible bullshit, but nothing on the level of the official greeting he mentioned. The standing around on the street thing and yelling is entirely odd. I also liked some of the points about the subliminal impact of self-deprecating language. From what I've read, and from the few movies I've seen that deal with Japanese culture, it _does_ seem like there's something about it that forces an distance between people that is hard to bridge. The host clubs and the separate master bedrooms are a fascinating symptom of this problem.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
Alex3917 17y ago
"American corporations do make people do some incredible bullshit, but nothing on the level of the official greeting he mentioned." Wal-Mart makes their employees do this every morning, and they are the largest private employer in the US. IIRC there is footage of this is The High Cost of Low Prices. I agree with your comment in general though. This article should pretty much be required reading for everyone in the US, since at least to me it's pretty clear that in another 20 years life here is going to resemble either Idiocracy or Japan depending on your socio-economic status.
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  "Wal-Mart makes their employees do this every morning, and they are the largest private employer in the US. " On my way to my office here in Bangalore, I once saw a team do the "Walmart cheer" ("Give me a W" ...) in the lobby of another office in the same building. All the offices in the building were sw dev companies I am not sure if they had a sw dev team here or outsourced some stuff (probably the latter) but it was quite early in the morning and most of the people looked half asleep and the rest acutely embarrassed. I'd rather quit then take part in such nonsense. Starting every work day feeling like an idiot must be quite draining.
dschobel 17y ago
Well since the audience here probably hasn't changed just for this story may I suggest that the lack of coherent commentary reflects the unfocussed and meandering style of the source article. It does have some interesting snapshots of Japanese culture in there but they are bookended by too many personal rants based on the author's peculiarities so the result is part travelogue, part social criticism, part gaming commentary, part manifesto.
- houseabsolute 17y ago
  That could explain it. Another possibility is that this site has a higher than usual percentage of nippophile users, and that they react negatively to articles critical of that country, its culture, or its institutions. Either possibility doesn't put an end to my disappointment.
  - camccann 17y ago
    Another possibility is that this site has a higher than usual percentage of nippophile users, Come now, you're not even trying. If you're going to be smugly derogatory toward people who enjoy some bit of Japanese popular culture, the technical term is "weeaboo".
    - houseabsolute 17y ago
      I enjoy some aspects of Japanese popular culture as well, anime in particular. That doesn't mean I'm blind to the possibility others who have the same taste might be biased against essays that portray the culture in a negative light, nor to the fact that people with that taste are more common among the geek set.
araneae 17y ago
Like most posts, the commentary reflects the content and tone of the article itself. He starts off by saying the reason he doesn't like Japan is he doesn't like anime. How high brow did you think the responses would be? Many of his complaints just sounds xenophobic. Sure, some of the things sounds absurd, but I'm sure plenty of US customs would sound equally absurd to the Japanese. And many of his complaints seem pretty absurd to me. Like complaining that they put a piece of tape on his drink if he doesn't get it in a bag. They do that in US grocery stores too, for milk.
rdtsc 17y ago
> The insights into Japanese company-culture are fascinating. For me, the most fascinating part about the Japanese society is the pastiche of mannerisms, catchphrases, and behaviors -- all copied from somewhere and never coming from an individual. There is a constant checking and double-checking that one is acting accordingly. These clues, on how to act, what to say, how to say it and when, are provided by tradition (easy defaults), television show hosts, celebrities, everything and anything external except from within. At first it might seem that yelling something is a subjective show of raw, emotions, something very personal and unique, a show of anger or excitement, but in reality it is just a formula that is repeated many times, probably accompanied by a total inner apathy. > From what I've read, and from the few movies I've seen that deal with Japanese culture, it _does_ seem like there's something about it that forces an distance between people that is hard to bridge. It seems that both parties know they are participating in a formality theater but nobody wants to be the first to say "ah, fuck it, this is ridiculous". Because of this drinking and participation in drinking if _very_ important. That is the only time when formality is allowed to be suspended and some semblance of real thoughts and feeling come out. It is the only time when you might find out what your perspective client really thinks about your product, or how loyal your employee really is.
ciupicri 17y ago
> American corporations do make people do some incredible bullshit, but nothing on the level of the official greeting he mentioned. While I agree that the way they shout good morning might be a bit strange, it does make sense. It makes everyone more polite, instead of rude. And speaking of politeness, Americans are way too informal compared to other cultures. As for greetings, I hate the "How do you do?" question which I think is pretty stupid/useless as this video shows - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8u2LSyEwc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8u2LSyEwc
- barrkel 17y ago
  What pathology do you ascribe to lack of formality? What practical problems does it cause, outside of seeming odd / stupid / useless to those less familiar with it? Excessive formality, on the other hand, has been implicated in e.g. plane crashes, where inferiors hesitate to criticize their superiors when they may have made a mistake.
  - ciupicri 17y ago
    I find it funny that you talk about plane crashes given the fact that the Japanese army used kamikazes in WWII, although in that case there was not a mistake. Lack of formality does not necessarily imply practical problems, it's mostly about respect. As for rules in general, let's also look at HN where you can't complain about a submission, you can only flag it. I think you'll agree with me when I say that this rule is a bit odd for a Reddit user.
    - barrkel 17y ago
      I'm not sure I could agree with you that kamikaze pilots were not a mistake. There are worse things than losing wars - losing your humanity, for one. Reddit, on the other hand, does not fare well in a comparison with HN, for my money. But I don't necessarily see a strong connection between formality and civility. One can be most uncivil even in the most stilted of tones.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

Alex3917 17y ago

"American corporations do make people do some incredible bullshit, but nothing on the level of the official greeting he mentioned." Wal-Mart makes their employees do this every morning, and they are the largest private employer in the US. IIRC there is footage of this is The High Cost of Low Prices. I agree with your comment in general though. This article should pretty much be required reading for everyone in the US, since at least to me it's pretty clear that in another 20 years life here is going to resemble either Idiocracy or Japan depending on your socio-economic status.

plinkplonk 17y ago
"Wal-Mart makes their employees do this every morning, and they are the largest private employer in the US. " On my way to my office here in Bangalore, I once saw a team do the "Walmart cheer" ("Give me a W" ...) in the lobby of another office in the same building. All the offices in the building were sw dev companies I am not sure if they had a sw dev team here or outsourced some stuff (probably the latter) but it was quite early in the morning and most of the people looked half asleep and the rest acutely embarrassed. I'd rather quit then take part in such nonsense. Starting every work day feeling like an idiot must be quite draining.

dschobel 17y ago

Well since the audience here probably hasn't changed just for this story may I suggest that the lack of coherent commentary reflects the unfocussed and meandering style of the source article. It does have some interesting snapshots of Japanese culture in there but they are bookended by too many personal rants based on the author's peculiarities so the result is part travelogue, part social criticism, part gaming commentary, part manifesto.

houseabsolute 17y ago
That could explain it. Another possibility is that this site has a higher than usual percentage of nippophile users, and that they react negatively to articles critical of that country, its culture, or its institutions. Either possibility doesn't put an end to my disappointment.
- camccann 17y ago
  Another possibility is that this site has a higher than usual percentage of nippophile users, Come now, you're not even trying. If you're going to be smugly derogatory toward people who enjoy some bit of Japanese popular culture, the technical term is "weeaboo".
  - houseabsolute 17y ago
    I enjoy some aspects of Japanese popular culture as well, anime in particular. That doesn't mean I'm blind to the possibility others who have the same taste might be biased against essays that portray the culture in a negative light, nor to the fact that people with that taste are more common among the geek set.

araneae 17y ago

Like most posts, the commentary reflects the content and tone of the article itself. He starts off by saying the reason he doesn't like Japan is he doesn't like anime. How high brow did you think the responses would be? Many of his complaints just sounds xenophobic. Sure, some of the things sounds absurd, but I'm sure plenty of US customs would sound equally absurd to the Japanese. And many of his complaints seem pretty absurd to me. Like complaining that they put a piece of tape on his drink if he doesn't get it in a bag. They do that in US grocery stores too, for milk.

rdtsc 17y ago

> The insights into Japanese company-culture are fascinating. For me, the most fascinating part about the Japanese society is the pastiche of mannerisms, catchphrases, and behaviors -- all copied from somewhere and never coming from an individual. There is a constant checking and double-checking that one is acting accordingly. These clues, on how to act, what to say, how to say it and when, are provided by tradition (easy defaults), television show hosts, celebrities, everything and anything external except from within. At first it might seem that yelling something is a subjective show of raw, emotions, something very personal and unique, a show of anger or excitement, but in reality it is just a formula that is repeated many times, probably accompanied by a total inner apathy. > From what I've read, and from the few movies I've seen that deal with Japanese culture, it _does_ seem like there's something about it that forces an distance between people that is hard to bridge. It seems that both parties know they are participating in a formality theater but nobody wants to be the first to say "ah, fuck it, this is ridiculous". Because of this drinking and participation in drinking if _very_ important. That is the only time when formality is allowed to be suspended and some semblance of real thoughts and feeling come out. It is the only time when you might find out what your perspective client really thinks about your product, or how loyal your employee really is.

ciupicri 17y ago

> American corporations do make people do some incredible bullshit, but nothing on the level of the official greeting he mentioned. While I agree that the way they shout good morning might be a bit strange, it does make sense. It makes everyone more polite, instead of rude. And speaking of politeness, Americans are way too informal compared to other cultures. As for greetings, I hate the "How do you do?" question which I think is pretty stupid/useless as this video shows - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8u2LSyEwc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8u2LSyEwc

barrkel 17y ago
What pathology do you ascribe to lack of formality? What practical problems does it cause, outside of seeming odd / stupid / useless to those less familiar with it? Excessive formality, on the other hand, has been implicated in e.g. plane crashes, where inferiors hesitate to criticize their superiors when they may have made a mistake.
- ciupicri 17y ago
  I find it funny that you talk about plane crashes given the fact that the Japanese army used kamikazes in WWII, although in that case there was not a mistake. Lack of formality does not necessarily imply practical problems, it's mostly about respect. As for rules in general, let's also look at HN where you can't complain about a submission, you can only flag it. I think you'll agree with me when I say that this rule is a bit odd for a Reddit user.
  - barrkel 17y ago
    I'm not sure I could agree with you that kamikaze pilots were not a mistake. There are worse things than losing wars - losing your humanity, for one. Reddit, on the other hand, does not fare well in a comparison with HN, for my money. But I don't necessarily see a strong connection between formality and civility. One can be most uncivil even in the most stilted of tones.