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> Those were not good developers; ie, there are some skills they were clearly lacking. Ok, fine... I'll be that guy: No True Scotsman. If you define "good deve

> Those were not good developers; ie, there are some skills they were clearly lacking. Ok, fine... I'll be that guy: No True Scotsman. If you define "good developers" as developers that can successfully create software without management, then yes a group of "good developers" can successfully create software without management.

ktRolster 10y ago
When developers are trying to do Things You Should Never Do Part 1 ( http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html ), then it's fair to say that they are lacking some skills. I don't think you should call that a 'no true Scotswoman'
- jdmichal 10y ago
  That's fair. I think the vague approach of "they were clearly lacking skills" was what triggered my response. In this case, there's a justifiable position there. But a lot of details could have changed, and that vague statement could still be blanket applied.
  - ktRolster 10y ago
    That's fair. I think the vague approach of "they were clearly lacking skills" was what triggered my response. Understandable. My comment was already getting to long, and I didn't have space to explain every detail. BTW, if you feel members on your development team aren't capable of self-managing, this book is really good to help you develop those skills: http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Coder-Conduct-Professional-Programmers/dp/0137081073 http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Coder-Conduct-Professional-Progr... Self-management is something every programmer should have in their skill-set.
    - jdmichal 10y ago
      Surprisingly, never heard of that book. I'll definitely be taking a look, thanks.
      - ktRolster 10y ago
        Here's another good book I recommend while we're at it: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0996193308 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0996193308 (disclaimer: I wrote it :)
geebee 10y ago
A "no true scotsman" argument would define good developers as developers who "don’t need velocity, daily stand ups, points estimations, spikes, scrum masters to deliver high quality software". A different standard, such as not engaging in rash rewrites that disqualifies someone from the "good developer" category, would keep this from becoming a "no true scotsman" argument.

ktRolster 10y ago

When developers are trying to do Things You Should Never Do Part 1 ( http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html ), then it's fair to say that they are lacking some skills. I don't think you should call that a 'no true Scotswoman'

jdmichal 10y ago
That's fair. I think the vague approach of "they were clearly lacking skills" was what triggered my response. In this case, there's a justifiable position there. But a lot of details could have changed, and that vague statement could still be blanket applied.
- ktRolster 10y ago
  That's fair. I think the vague approach of "they were clearly lacking skills" was what triggered my response. Understandable. My comment was already getting to long, and I didn't have space to explain every detail. BTW, if you feel members on your development team aren't capable of self-managing, this book is really good to help you develop those skills: http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Coder-Conduct-Professional-Programmers/dp/0137081073 http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Coder-Conduct-Professional-Progr... Self-management is something every programmer should have in their skill-set.
  - jdmichal 10y ago
    Surprisingly, never heard of that book. I'll definitely be taking a look, thanks.
    - ktRolster 10y ago
      Here's another good book I recommend while we're at it: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0996193308 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0996193308 (disclaimer: I wrote it :)

geebee 10y ago

A "no true scotsman" argument would define good developers as developers who "don’t need velocity, daily stand ups, points estimations, spikes, scrum masters to deliver high quality software". A different standard, such as not engaging in rash rewrites that disqualifies someone from the "good developer" category, would keep this from becoming a "no true scotsman" argument.