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What do you mean not just propaganda? The Chinese nationalism you talk about has strong roots in propaganda. Its the very purpose of propaganda. Its also the

by okc 10y ago

What do you mean not just propaganda? The Chinese nationalism you talk about has strong roots in propaganda. Its the very purpose of propaganda. Its also the same communist party which caused the great famine that are in power now. Different people, same party. The amount of doublespeak in your writing makes me question if you really believe what you write. why are you defending propaganda? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak

shifter 10y ago
Mike is a respected member of both HN and the Cocoa community. Are you implying that he's a shill?
- okc 10y ago
  No, I'm not implying that. I'm implying that I don't understand how his arguments flow - they seem self defeating. For the reasons outlined above. I don't mean it personally, and I don't really care if he is respected or not. I just wanna get to the bottom of why, how and what he is getting at. And from his writing style it seem I am led to doubt he doesn't really believe what he is implying. Of course, I might and probqly an wrong so would appreciate clarification. The argument of: its not just propaganda, its also a reflection of development - doesn't wash with me.
- okc 10y ago
  I still don't think so, but can I ask you a question. Do you think there are some strange posts on these threads, written with an underlying tinge of propaganda (not everyone). This morning I woke up to find my original post no further replied to, but down voted from 8 to 2. I also seem to be having a conversation with someone who registers a new name each time they post (I presume). And the whole thread is about controlling social media - particularly through controlling perception of public opinion. Honest question, what do you think? Irony, conspiracy, time zone differences.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > Do you think there are some strange posts on these threads, written with an underlying tinge of propaganda (not everyone). You mean like yourself here [1] where you are touting government propaganda? The thing about propaganda is, the more one-sided a conversation becomes, the less interesting it is. There's no single viewpoint that can pretend to take two opposing sides of an argument. Good internet comments are succinct, point out flaws in other comments' arguments, and are on the minds of other readers. If a comment thread doesn't make me think, I lose interest. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11744448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11744448
    - okc 10y ago
      Explain. Explain one country that I am in any way supporting the propaganda of. If its because I am drawing attention to Taiwan not being fully recognised, as per our earlier thread. Then that is an assumption based in the fact of it being a non-un member. But I'm drawing attention to the type of corruption that let's countries (such as China and the UK) bully Taiwan. Sound like a propaganda line? Explain which country and how? Please. Can't believe you are lecturing on succinct arguments and at the same time calling my post propaganda without any reason. Read your own post and apply it to yourself.
      - studentrob 10y ago
        > Explain one country that I am in any way supporting the propaganda of. You said propaganda is an effective means of helping China gain international influence: > Public opinion outside of China is very important for business and strategy. Present China as an improving progressive regime, smooth over its human rights problems, and china can gain more influence internationally. [1] I disagree 100%. It's not effective and it hurts China's relations. Relationships are built on trust. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11744448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11744448
        okc 10y ago
        Come on. You said I was touting government propaganda. If by that you mean exposing it and its influence. Then yeah.. I hereby tout all government propaganda and always will do. I wish international relations were built on trust. But that's a bollocks and idealised view. My example of the UN membership is quite fitting. Small countries with no interest in Taiwan have been directly bribed by china to vote against letting Taiwan join. Call that trust? Point out why and how this isn't true. Make a succinct argument, support your assertions.
mikeash 10y ago
The average Chinese person's life, and China's position in the world, has improved tremendously under the Communist government. This is basic fact, not propaganda. All I'm saying is that part of the acceptance or even favor the typical Chinese person feels towards their government is because of this actual factual improvement. I'm not sure what you find problematic here. Do you disagree with the existence of this vast improvement in people's lives? Do you agree with it, but think it somehow plays no part in people's opinions of the government?
- okc 10y ago
  Well, which came first, the government or peoples views on it. When people can't openly express dissatisfaction and are censored and are subject to organised propaganda, then it's very hard to say. Under the communist government peoples lives haven't improved: look at the great famine. So yes I disagree peoples lives have not improved because of communism in China. You ask me to pick which era of government I would like to be under. But its all the same government using propaganda the same way. So what if it is now improving the vast amount of peoples lives. What about the minority being tortued by it? My conversations with Chinese people don't show a favour with the current government. But that's not much of an indicator, under the great famine, their was probably even more vast support for the Government. That's the nature of propaganda. You say China has improved under communism. Think what it could have achieved without it. Or look back even further at what it achieved as an empire. The average Chinese persons life has improved from an absolutely horrific existence under communism to a slightly better one - might be more like what your saying. As I said before, it's the same party as always. Until propaganda is removed and freedom of speech installed, public opinion is far from fact and the average Chinese persons quality of life is as much fiction as it is belief.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I don't understand what you mean by "it's all the same government." If you were being oppressed and murdered and starved in 1940, it wasn't the Communist government, it was probably the Japanese Empire. In 1900 it was the old imperial government. In between you probably had the chance to be oppressed and murdered and starved by the Republic of China, who are now the government of Taiwan. I'm not defending the Chinese government nor am I denying the role that propaganda plays in shaping public opinion there (as it does everywhere). But it is not only propaganda which does this. Life in China is much better compared to how it was in 1949, and part of the public's view of the government is due to that.

by okc 10y ago

shifter 10y ago

Mike is a respected member of both HN and the Cocoa community. Are you implying that he's a shill?

okc 10y ago
No, I'm not implying that. I'm implying that I don't understand how his arguments flow - they seem self defeating. For the reasons outlined above. I don't mean it personally, and I don't really care if he is respected or not. I just wanna get to the bottom of why, how and what he is getting at. And from his writing style it seem I am led to doubt he doesn't really believe what he is implying. Of course, I might and probqly an wrong so would appreciate clarification. The argument of: its not just propaganda, its also a reflection of development - doesn't wash with me.
okc 10y ago
I still don't think so, but can I ask you a question. Do you think there are some strange posts on these threads, written with an underlying tinge of propaganda (not everyone). This morning I woke up to find my original post no further replied to, but down voted from 8 to 2. I also seem to be having a conversation with someone who registers a new name each time they post (I presume). And the whole thread is about controlling social media - particularly through controlling perception of public opinion. Honest question, what do you think? Irony, conspiracy, time zone differences.
- studentrob 10y ago
  > Do you think there are some strange posts on these threads, written with an underlying tinge of propaganda (not everyone). You mean like yourself here [1] where you are touting government propaganda? The thing about propaganda is, the more one-sided a conversation becomes, the less interesting it is. There's no single viewpoint that can pretend to take two opposing sides of an argument. Good internet comments are succinct, point out flaws in other comments' arguments, and are on the minds of other readers. If a comment thread doesn't make me think, I lose interest. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11744448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11744448
  - okc 10y ago
    Explain. Explain one country that I am in any way supporting the propaganda of. If its because I am drawing attention to Taiwan not being fully recognised, as per our earlier thread. Then that is an assumption based in the fact of it being a non-un member. But I'm drawing attention to the type of corruption that let's countries (such as China and the UK) bully Taiwan. Sound like a propaganda line? Explain which country and how? Please. Can't believe you are lecturing on succinct arguments and at the same time calling my post propaganda without any reason. Read your own post and apply it to yourself.
    - studentrob 10y ago
      > Explain one country that I am in any way supporting the propaganda of. You said propaganda is an effective means of helping China gain international influence: > Public opinion outside of China is very important for business and strategy. Present China as an improving progressive regime, smooth over its human rights problems, and china can gain more influence internationally. [1] I disagree 100%. It's not effective and it hurts China's relations. Relationships are built on trust. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11744448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11744448
      - okc 10y ago
        Come on. You said I was touting government propaganda. If by that you mean exposing it and its influence. Then yeah.. I hereby tout all government propaganda and always will do. I wish international relations were built on trust. But that's a bollocks and idealised view. My example of the UN membership is quite fitting. Small countries with no interest in Taiwan have been directly bribed by china to vote against letting Taiwan join. Call that trust? Point out why and how this isn't true. Make a succinct argument, support your assertions.

mikeash 10y ago

The average Chinese person's life, and China's position in the world, has improved tremendously under the Communist government. This is basic fact, not propaganda. All I'm saying is that part of the acceptance or even favor the typical Chinese person feels towards their government is because of this actual factual improvement. I'm not sure what you find problematic here. Do you disagree with the existence of this vast improvement in people's lives? Do you agree with it, but think it somehow plays no part in people's opinions of the government?

okc 10y ago
Well, which came first, the government or peoples views on it. When people can't openly express dissatisfaction and are censored and are subject to organised propaganda, then it's very hard to say. Under the communist government peoples lives haven't improved: look at the great famine. So yes I disagree peoples lives have not improved because of communism in China. You ask me to pick which era of government I would like to be under. But its all the same government using propaganda the same way. So what if it is now improving the vast amount of peoples lives. What about the minority being tortued by it? My conversations with Chinese people don't show a favour with the current government. But that's not much of an indicator, under the great famine, their was probably even more vast support for the Government. That's the nature of propaganda. You say China has improved under communism. Think what it could have achieved without it. Or look back even further at what it achieved as an empire. The average Chinese persons life has improved from an absolutely horrific existence under communism to a slightly better one - might be more like what your saying. As I said before, it's the same party as always. Until propaganda is removed and freedom of speech installed, public opinion is far from fact and the average Chinese persons quality of life is as much fiction as it is belief.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I don't understand what you mean by "it's all the same government." If you were being oppressed and murdered and starved in 1940, it wasn't the Communist government, it was probably the Japanese Empire. In 1900 it was the old imperial government. In between you probably had the chance to be oppressed and murdered and starved by the Republic of China, who are now the government of Taiwan. I'm not defending the Chinese government nor am I denying the role that propaganda plays in shaping public opinion there (as it does everywhere). But it is not only propaganda which does this. Life in China is much better compared to how it was in 1949, and part of the public's view of the government is due to that.