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A sadder reflection is how Taiwan still isn't considered a country internationally. Due to China's international influence. For exmaple: The Taipei Economic and

by okc 10y ago

A sadder reflection is how Taiwan still isn't considered a country internationally. Due to China's international influence. For exmaple: The Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States, which is quite a long winded way of saying embassy without saying embassy.

studentrob 10y ago
> A sadder reflection is how Taiwan still isn't considered a country internationally Perceptions do not change reality. Taiwan has free press and their own directly elected government. Also, many people in China do know that Taiwan is its own country. No tax dollars are going to Beijing from Taiwan. Taiwan is completely sovereign.
- okc 10y ago
  It is, I agree. But when push comes to shove it demonstrates internationally countries wouldn't support defending Taiwan if China did invade. They couldn't even support Taiwan as a country politically because China bribed and bullied other countries to disagree with recognising Taiwan. Hong Kongs a different case but shows how international support can be subdued by China. Taiwan is a reality. Its growing military force supports this too. I don't think and I hope China would never invade. I totally agree Taiwan is a country. But internationally this isn't often recognised and might give an invasion more clout. Ukraine/russia springs to mind as a similar scenario. Not the Ukraine weren't a country but that they didn't have enough international presence for anyone to properly back them up, when invaded.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > it demonstrates internationally countries wouldn't support defending Taiwan if China did invade. China does not have any reason to invade Taiwan. Taiwan is a peaceful nation. The people of Taiwan identify as Taiwanese, not Chinese. Taiwan is very different from the other areas you mention.
    - okc 10y ago
      I agree with you! Taiwan is peaceful and Taiwanese people are Taiwanese. And yes Taiwan is different to the areas I mentioned. I also agree that China doesn't really have a reason to invade Taiwan. Taiwan isn't recognised internationally as a country (not fully). If China did have a reason to invade (not a crazy idea given the history) then the international response may be very lacking. Either way, China has and does continue to try and make Taiwan powerless as in independent country. Its been fairly successful in this respect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_limited_recognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_limited_re...
      - studentrob 10y ago
        > I also agree that China doesn't really have a reason to invade Taiwan. ... > If China did have a reason to invade (not a crazy idea given the history) These two statements are in direct conflict with each other. Agree to disagree > Either way, China has and does continue to try and make Taiwan powerless as in independent country. Its been fairly successful in this respect. Taiwan definitely has power. It takes strength to create your own territory and government. It also takes strength for the people to elect an entirely new party into office, which just happened in Taiwan. It's not just about who has a bigger military or more allies. There are many more variables. Despite Chinese propaganda, many people in China and elsewhere in the world do know that Taiwan is its own country and is not part of China.
        okc 10y ago
        Its all relative. Its not a contradiction to say at the moment China doesn't have much reason to invade - but also point they have had reason before and may again. Let me put it better: they have a latent reason. As someone pointed out in this thread If Taiwan asserts its independence, Chinese have not officially ruled out an invasion. I also know this isn't the reality of current climate. I agree Taiwan has power, and power has a lot of variables. Being a non-member state of the UN, because of China bribing other states, shows that this power has been shaped by China to some extent. Not having official embassies in many countries - shows the same thing. People do know Taiwan is a country not part of China. But they don't always officially recognise that. Combine this quasi-international presence with an invasion and your idea of Taiwan's power variables might shift to being based on the size of its military and its official international recognition. thats where ukraine and hong kong are relevant - to an extent. The Taiwanese military is bigger than ever, so I think theres at least a little relevance in all this. Not relevance that theres gonna be an invasion, but relevance of the latent power plays that effect diplomatic relations.

by okc 10y ago

studentrob 10y ago

> A sadder reflection is how Taiwan still isn't considered a country internationally Perceptions do not change reality. Taiwan has free press and their own directly elected government. Also, many people in China do know that Taiwan is its own country. No tax dollars are going to Beijing from Taiwan. Taiwan is completely sovereign.

okc 10y ago
It is, I agree. But when push comes to shove it demonstrates internationally countries wouldn't support defending Taiwan if China did invade. They couldn't even support Taiwan as a country politically because China bribed and bullied other countries to disagree with recognising Taiwan. Hong Kongs a different case but shows how international support can be subdued by China. Taiwan is a reality. Its growing military force supports this too. I don't think and I hope China would never invade. I totally agree Taiwan is a country. But internationally this isn't often recognised and might give an invasion more clout. Ukraine/russia springs to mind as a similar scenario. Not the Ukraine weren't a country but that they didn't have enough international presence for anyone to properly back them up, when invaded.
- studentrob 10y ago
  > it demonstrates internationally countries wouldn't support defending Taiwan if China did invade. China does not have any reason to invade Taiwan. Taiwan is a peaceful nation. The people of Taiwan identify as Taiwanese, not Chinese. Taiwan is very different from the other areas you mention.
  - okc 10y ago
    I agree with you! Taiwan is peaceful and Taiwanese people are Taiwanese. And yes Taiwan is different to the areas I mentioned. I also agree that China doesn't really have a reason to invade Taiwan. Taiwan isn't recognised internationally as a country (not fully). If China did have a reason to invade (not a crazy idea given the history) then the international response may be very lacking. Either way, China has and does continue to try and make Taiwan powerless as in independent country. Its been fairly successful in this respect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_limited_recognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_limited_re...
    - studentrob 10y ago
      > I also agree that China doesn't really have a reason to invade Taiwan. ... > If China did have a reason to invade (not a crazy idea given the history) These two statements are in direct conflict with each other. Agree to disagree > Either way, China has and does continue to try and make Taiwan powerless as in independent country. Its been fairly successful in this respect. Taiwan definitely has power. It takes strength to create your own territory and government. It also takes strength for the people to elect an entirely new party into office, which just happened in Taiwan. It's not just about who has a bigger military or more allies. There are many more variables. Despite Chinese propaganda, many people in China and elsewhere in the world do know that Taiwan is its own country and is not part of China.
      - okc 10y ago
        Its all relative. Its not a contradiction to say at the moment China doesn't have much reason to invade - but also point they have had reason before and may again. Let me put it better: they have a latent reason. As someone pointed out in this thread If Taiwan asserts its independence, Chinese have not officially ruled out an invasion. I also know this isn't the reality of current climate. I agree Taiwan has power, and power has a lot of variables. Being a non-member state of the UN, because of China bribing other states, shows that this power has been shaped by China to some extent. Not having official embassies in many countries - shows the same thing. People do know Taiwan is a country not part of China. But they don't always officially recognise that. Combine this quasi-international presence with an invasion and your idea of Taiwan's power variables might shift to being based on the size of its military and its official international recognition. thats where ukraine and hong kong are relevant - to an extent. The Taiwanese military is bigger than ever, so I think theres at least a little relevance in all this. Not relevance that theres gonna be an invasion, but relevance of the latent power plays that effect diplomatic relations.