7 ms·

It's much more universal than that. Variations on this proverb occur in many, many cultures and languages: there’s nobbut three generations atween a clog and c

by ef4 10y ago

It's much more universal than that. Variations on this proverb occur in many, many cultures and languages: there’s nobbut three generations atween a clog and clog dalle stalle alle stelle alle stalle quien no lo tiene, lo hance; y quien lo tiene, lo deshance 富不过三代 (wealth does not pass three generations)

spullara 10y ago
Probably wishful thinking. Here is an analysis done that shows wealth lasting 7 centuries http://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11691818/barone-mocetti-florence http://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11691818/barone-mocetti-florenc...
- Retric 10y ago
  Alternatively, 7 centuries without new lasting wealth / dynasty's. Clearly, some groups understand how to maintain wealth, but for most newly wealthy it's easy come easy go.
- ef4 10y ago
  That doesn't necessarily contradict the proverb. It's saying that somebody who starts out poor and then rises is still likely to have descendants who are poor. That is actually a statement that social classes are sticky.
- Hermel 10y ago
  No, the study shows that similar families are rich today as back then. It does not say what happened in between. It could well be that these families lost and regain their fortunes multiple times.
  - boxy310 10y ago
    Strictly speaking, the aphorism relates to the nouveau-riche. Old money may have other aspects of social entrenchment to wealth, which is only disrupted by major social disasters like World War I or the Black Plague.
- billmalarky 10y ago
  Piggy backing off your comment to share these two great contrasting articles on maintaining wealth. First the Vanderbilts (who lost it all) http://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2014/07/14/the-vanderbilts-how-american-royalty-lost-their-crown-jewels/#1dcb7585e196 http://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2014/07/14/the-v... Then the Mellons (who have never been richer) http://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2014/07/08/175-years-later-the-mellons-have-never-been-richer-howd-they-do-it/#7d3ab1272d0b http://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2014/07/08/175-years-... Probably my favorite series of work from Forbes.
  - kens 10y ago
    Gloria Vanderbilt has an estimated $200 million, so I wouldn't say the Vanderbilts lost it all. Rather than 3 generations shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves, it's more like 5 generations from America's richest to merely very rich. Alfred Vanderbilt was less fortunate. He decided not to take the Titanic at the last minute, but 3 years later was on the Lusitania when it was torpedoed. Despite not knowing how to swim, he gave his life jacket to a young mother and died. (This is an interesting counterpoint to yesterday's article "Does power really corrupt" about how the rich are less caring.)
- Snargorf 10y ago
  On that time scale, I'm guessing IQ differences would come into play. I'd be fascinated if they did a study on whether noble lineage predicts intellectual performance. As a piece of side-data, Jews have, for many centuries, been above-average in wealth, and it's well-understood now that they're also above average in IQ. They've also long been discriminated against and sometimes massacred. Even in Nazi Germany, where Jews were openly hated, they remained wealthy. Even after WW2, when their families had been butchered and their homes destroyed and their things stolen, they quickly became wealthy again within a few decades. In this case, it seems the Jewish IQ advantage consistently weighs more in their favor than their social disadvantages weight against them.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    It's mostly a culture of investing in education for their children and working both smart and hard in business. Plus, there were tons of piss-poor jews in the US and elsewhere and tons still are. Plus, there are tons of explanations for the advantage besides IQ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence
    - Snargorf 10y ago
      It's quite a stretch to know that one group has a higher average IQ (by ~10 points) and yet still insist that there is some other explanation for why they are economically successful in every society. I mean seriously. Question is there: Why are Jews wealthy? Answer is there: 110IQ. These are obviously the fixed cause and effect; everything else (e.g. culture of intellectual achievement) is just the fuzzy link between them.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >* It's quite a stretch to know that one group has a higher average IQ (by ~10 points) and yet still insist that there is some other explanation for why they are economically successful in every society.* Actually, you probably just confuse cause and effect. Why do the jews have higher IQs? Answer: because they are wealthy, so their offspring have had the benefit of better nutrition, better early care, etc, and better selection of healthy and intelligent prospective partners. Tons of hereditary and environmental factors come into play just by being wealthy. Not to mention that not all -- or even the majority-- of jews are wealthy, nor are all successful. These claims are mostly the province of stereotype, not to say racism.
anizan 10y ago
Life is more complicated then Keynes at places. SARDAR title is bestowed after 5 generations for example in PUNJAB regarldess of what 3 of them did with their money.

by ef4 10y ago

spullara 10y ago

Probably wishful thinking. Here is an analysis done that shows wealth lasting 7 centuries http://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11691818/barone-mocetti-florence http://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11691818/barone-mocetti-florenc...

Retric 10y ago
Alternatively, 7 centuries without new lasting wealth / dynasty's. Clearly, some groups understand how to maintain wealth, but for most newly wealthy it's easy come easy go.
ef4 10y ago
That doesn't necessarily contradict the proverb. It's saying that somebody who starts out poor and then rises is still likely to have descendants who are poor. That is actually a statement that social classes are sticky.
Hermel 10y ago
No, the study shows that similar families are rich today as back then. It does not say what happened in between. It could well be that these families lost and regain their fortunes multiple times.
- boxy310 10y ago
  Strictly speaking, the aphorism relates to the nouveau-riche. Old money may have other aspects of social entrenchment to wealth, which is only disrupted by major social disasters like World War I or the Black Plague.
billmalarky 10y ago
Piggy backing off your comment to share these two great contrasting articles on maintaining wealth. First the Vanderbilts (who lost it all) http://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2014/07/14/the-vanderbilts-how-american-royalty-lost-their-crown-jewels/#1dcb7585e196 http://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2014/07/14/the-v... Then the Mellons (who have never been richer) http://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2014/07/08/175-years-later-the-mellons-have-never-been-richer-howd-they-do-it/#7d3ab1272d0b http://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2014/07/08/175-years-... Probably my favorite series of work from Forbes.
- kens 10y ago
  Gloria Vanderbilt has an estimated $200 million, so I wouldn't say the Vanderbilts lost it all. Rather than 3 generations shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves, it's more like 5 generations from America's richest to merely very rich. Alfred Vanderbilt was less fortunate. He decided not to take the Titanic at the last minute, but 3 years later was on the Lusitania when it was torpedoed. Despite not knowing how to swim, he gave his life jacket to a young mother and died. (This is an interesting counterpoint to yesterday's article "Does power really corrupt" about how the rich are less caring.)
Snargorf 10y ago
On that time scale, I'm guessing IQ differences would come into play. I'd be fascinated if they did a study on whether noble lineage predicts intellectual performance. As a piece of side-data, Jews have, for many centuries, been above-average in wealth, and it's well-understood now that they're also above average in IQ. They've also long been discriminated against and sometimes massacred. Even in Nazi Germany, where Jews were openly hated, they remained wealthy. Even after WW2, when their families had been butchered and their homes destroyed and their things stolen, they quickly became wealthy again within a few decades. In this case, it seems the Jewish IQ advantage consistently weighs more in their favor than their social disadvantages weight against them.
- coldtea 10y ago
  It's mostly a culture of investing in education for their children and working both smart and hard in business. Plus, there were tons of piss-poor jews in the US and elsewhere and tons still are. Plus, there are tons of explanations for the advantage besides IQ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence
  - Snargorf 10y ago
    It's quite a stretch to know that one group has a higher average IQ (by ~10 points) and yet still insist that there is some other explanation for why they are economically successful in every society. I mean seriously. Question is there: Why are Jews wealthy? Answer is there: 110IQ. These are obviously the fixed cause and effect; everything else (e.g. culture of intellectual achievement) is just the fuzzy link between them.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >* It's quite a stretch to know that one group has a higher average IQ (by ~10 points) and yet still insist that there is some other explanation for why they are economically successful in every society.* Actually, you probably just confuse cause and effect. Why do the jews have higher IQs? Answer: because they are wealthy, so their offspring have had the benefit of better nutrition, better early care, etc, and better selection of healthy and intelligent prospective partners. Tons of hereditary and environmental factors come into play just by being wealthy. Not to mention that not all -- or even the majority-- of jews are wealthy, nor are all successful. These claims are mostly the province of stereotype, not to say racism.

anizan 10y ago

Life is more complicated then Keynes at places. SARDAR title is bestowed after 5 generations for example in PUNJAB regarldess of what 3 of them did with their money.