4 ms·

I only read about half that article before losing interest, but one argument jumped out at me: the mandatory office parties and drinking outings. This, IMO, is

by gcv 17y ago

rick888 17y ago
"I only read about half that article before losing interest, but one argument jumped out at me: the mandatory office parties and drinking outings. This, IMO, is not a Japan-only phenomenon, although I'm sure the Japanese put their own cultural twists on this lovely concept." You are right about this. Pretty much any place I have worked (I'm from the US) has had office parties or other kind of outings. I almost always went because it does help you get to know your boss and co-workers (it was only about once-a-month). I don't really see a problem with it. Your example of going out three times a week is a bit much (I wouldn't go out that many times a week), but you could have at least gone out with them once-in-awhile to show them that you don't completely hate your co-workers. If you do, you probably shouldn't be working there anyway. You can't take the human nature/social aspect out of working. If you don't do these things, people will think you are weird/the outsider/don't like them. Maybe you should run your own business?
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  " I almost always went because it does help you get to know your boss and co-workers (it was only about once-a-month). I don't really see a problem with it." I made it a point never to go for one after my first experience. In Bangalore these take weird forms, usually wasting a holiday or a weekend, landing up in some god forsaken "resort", where you can do exciting things like play badminton or carroms, Quoits or Dumb Charades (I kid you not!), or quietly get drunk in a corner, with some of the really bad companies throwing in a few "mission and vision" style speeches from the powers that be. Once I got a letter from a VP telling me to report to his office and explain why I didn't attend the "office party weekend + mission and vision session" over the previous weekend and I explained (quite diplomatically) that I didn't give a fuck about these things and had no intention of ever attending anything like this in the future either. He seemed completely shocked and speechless and was almost in tears when I left. My immediate superior later gave me a veiled warning that my " career progress could be affected" by such "unorthodox attitudes" but, strangely enough, it wasn't. I got regular promotions and raises and was "on the leadership track" when I left because work was too boring. They didn't believe my reason for leaving either ("I am bored out of my skull"), because I was a "senior person" (I was 28!!) and was "poised on the leadership ladder" (yes they actually spoke like that!). These were large companies though. Small (less than 20 people) company parties were often a lot of fun. I am so glad I don't have to work for large companies anymore.
  - rick888 17y ago
    "These were large companies though. Small (less than 20 people) company parties were often a lot of fun. I am so glad I don't have to work for large companies anymore." I agree with you there. I now only work for small companies for that very same reason.
danieldon 17y ago
That's only really the case in certain environments. In finance or consulting it's very common, particular for younger employees, but those are pretty much the only industries and demographic I've ever heard of it being widely expected. The only ubiquitous US workplace social function is the holiday party.
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  Biglaw ("white shoe") firms are even worse.
phil_collins 17y ago
Hahaha. I used to work at a tech company that constantly had happy hours and even dinners out at restaurants together. Eventually I stopped going to all of them because I couldn't handle all these nerds getting drunk and trying to talk faster and louder than the next one. They still tolerated me. But one day the boss bought some shitty Chinese food for the company lunch and I just went out and got myself a gyro and came back. It was never the same after that.
pw0ncakes 17y ago
I only read about half that article before losing interest, but one argument jumped out at me: the mandatory office parties and drinking outings. This, IMO, is not a Japan-only phenomenon, although I'm sure the Japanese put their own cultural twists on this lovely concept. This was the best and most interesting part. The rest were minor cultural gripes; but Japanese corporate culture, from everything I've heard, is severely broken even by our low standards. American and Japanese corporate conformity seem to be different in one aspect. The Japanese-style conformity, as described by the OP, seems to be about seeming like a "team player" rather than standing out. American-style Wall Street conformity is about the "hungry" image. The best predictor of who will succeed on Wall Street is commute time (as a negative correlate). This is not because of the long hours or stress, but because of the image one projects by one's choice of neighborhood. (This is also why Manhattan real estate is so expensive; there's a professional stake in one's location.) 40-year-old MDs with families are "allowed" to live in Jersey, but a 24-year-old who lives in Brooklyn is just weird; either he doesn't expect to be successful, or he's saving (gasp!) and might do something funny like launch a startup. No one will get fired for failing to show "hunger", but you definitely won't get promoted. My experience, however, has shown that "hungry" people (i.e. those with empty or overtly material ambitions) are generally one-dimensional, sociopathic backstabbers with mediocre ideas and whose overall worth is less than nothing.

by gcv 17y ago

rick888 17y ago

"I only read about half that article before losing interest, but one argument jumped out at me: the mandatory office parties and drinking outings. This, IMO, is not a Japan-only phenomenon, although I'm sure the Japanese put their own cultural twists on this lovely concept." You are right about this. Pretty much any place I have worked (I'm from the US) has had office parties or other kind of outings. I almost always went because it does help you get to know your boss and co-workers (it was only about once-a-month). I don't really see a problem with it. Your example of going out three times a week is a bit much (I wouldn't go out that many times a week), but you could have at least gone out with them once-in-awhile to show them that you don't completely hate your co-workers. If you do, you probably shouldn't be working there anyway. You can't take the human nature/social aspect out of working. If you don't do these things, people will think you are weird/the outsider/don't like them. Maybe you should run your own business?

plinkplonk 17y ago
" I almost always went because it does help you get to know your boss and co-workers (it was only about once-a-month). I don't really see a problem with it." I made it a point never to go for one after my first experience. In Bangalore these take weird forms, usually wasting a holiday or a weekend, landing up in some god forsaken "resort", where you can do exciting things like play badminton or carroms, Quoits or Dumb Charades (I kid you not!), or quietly get drunk in a corner, with some of the really bad companies throwing in a few "mission and vision" style speeches from the powers that be. Once I got a letter from a VP telling me to report to his office and explain why I didn't attend the "office party weekend + mission and vision session" over the previous weekend and I explained (quite diplomatically) that I didn't give a fuck about these things and had no intention of ever attending anything like this in the future either. He seemed completely shocked and speechless and was almost in tears when I left. My immediate superior later gave me a veiled warning that my " career progress could be affected" by such "unorthodox attitudes" but, strangely enough, it wasn't. I got regular promotions and raises and was "on the leadership track" when I left because work was too boring. They didn't believe my reason for leaving either ("I am bored out of my skull"), because I was a "senior person" (I was 28!!) and was "poised on the leadership ladder" (yes they actually spoke like that!). These were large companies though. Small (less than 20 people) company parties were often a lot of fun. I am so glad I don't have to work for large companies anymore.
- rick888 17y ago
  "These were large companies though. Small (less than 20 people) company parties were often a lot of fun. I am so glad I don't have to work for large companies anymore." I agree with you there. I now only work for small companies for that very same reason.

danieldon 17y ago

That's only really the case in certain environments. In finance or consulting it's very common, particular for younger employees, but those are pretty much the only industries and demographic I've ever heard of it being widely expected. The only ubiquitous US workplace social function is the holiday party.

pw0ncakes 17y ago
Biglaw ("white shoe") firms are even worse.

phil_collins 17y ago

Hahaha. I used to work at a tech company that constantly had happy hours and even dinners out at restaurants together. Eventually I stopped going to all of them because I couldn't handle all these nerds getting drunk and trying to talk faster and louder than the next one. They still tolerated me. But one day the boss bought some shitty Chinese food for the company lunch and I just went out and got myself a gyro and came back. It was never the same after that.

pw0ncakes 17y ago

I only read about half that article before losing interest, but one argument jumped out at me: the mandatory office parties and drinking outings. This, IMO, is not a Japan-only phenomenon, although I'm sure the Japanese put their own cultural twists on this lovely concept. This was the best and most interesting part. The rest were minor cultural gripes; but Japanese corporate culture, from everything I've heard, is severely broken even by our low standards. American and Japanese corporate conformity seem to be different in one aspect. The Japanese-style conformity, as described by the OP, seems to be about seeming like a "team player" rather than standing out. American-style Wall Street conformity is about the "hungry" image. The best predictor of who will succeed on Wall Street is commute time (as a negative correlate). This is not because of the long hours or stress, but because of the image one projects by one's choice of neighborhood. (This is also why Manhattan real estate is so expensive; there's a professional stake in one's location.) 40-year-old MDs with families are "allowed" to live in Jersey, but a 24-year-old who lives in Brooklyn is just weird; either he doesn't expect to be successful, or he's saving (gasp!) and might do something funny like launch a startup. No one will get fired for failing to show "hunger", but you definitely won't get promoted. My experience, however, has shown that "hungry" people (i.e. those with empty or overtly material ambitions) are generally one-dimensional, sociopathic backstabbers with mediocre ideas and whose overall worth is less than nothing.