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I think you've completely missed the point. I wasn't talking about politics at all, nor was I condoning censorship and saying it's some moral good. I'm just il

I think you've completely missed the point. I wasn't talking about politics at all, nor was I condoning censorship and saying it's some moral good. I'm just illustrating its perceived benefits. While we as a country have a national freak-out and foam at the mouth because we saw a nipple during the super bowl - some people might see that are media manipulation of mass psychology When it comes to politics they're obviously using it for their own benefit, keeping their people in the dark and trying to rob the country as much as possible without being too obnoxious about it. These things are completely obvious to any outside observer and it's not interesting to just repeat them ad nauseum. I find it much more interesting to think that the censorship lets them say... contain hysteria about terrorism after the attacks in Xinjiang, or stop the whole place from turning into a crazy anti Japanese riot when some PM decides to go visit Yasukuni. Then you can stop and think "Oh okay.. I can see how they can end up thinking it's a good thing..." B/c at face-value it makes no sense for them to put with it

Retric 10y ago
Perceived benefits, or conditioned response? One of this most insidious things about totalitarian states is people self censer to the degree it's hard to know what they actually feel. One example I think most people on HN may see is how people talk about work. It's really rare for people with white collar jobs to admit they hate their job. Sometimes it's years after they quit before someone will say they hated a job.
- optforfon 10y ago
  Are the two are mutually exclusive? I'd argue both are true to a degree - though "conditioned response" evokes the kind of simplistic "mindless puppet" view of the Chinese perspective I'm trying to avoid. It has its own self contained logic that should be appreciated regardless if it's something from their culture and traditions, or something instilled subversively by the government. All I've tried to do is illustrate that logic as best as I understand it - without passing judgments or condoning it
  - Retric 10y ago
    I don't mean people are getting brain washed, just that they may not be expressing their views freely. Being willing to complain to strangers has huge cultural significance.
okc 10y ago
regardless of what you mean, can I just put phrases like: "hysteria about terrorism after the attacks in Xinjiang" into context: "Rather than embrace lawyers, writers, and whistleblowers as allies in an effort to deal effectively with rising social unrest, the government remains hostile to criticism. The government targets activists and their family members for harassment, arbitrary detention, legally baseless imprisonment, torture, and denial of access to adequate medical treatment. It has also significantly narrowed space for the press and the Internet, further limiting opportunities for citizens to press for much-needed reforms." Specifically on Xinjiang: "Following the Urumqi attack, the Chinese government announced a year-long anti-terrorism crackdown in Xinjiang. Within the first month, police arrested 380 suspects and tried more than 300 for terror-related offenses. Authorities also convened thousands of people for the public sentencing of dozens of those tried. In August, authorities executed three Uighurs who were convicted of orchestrating an attack in Beijing’s Tiananmen Square in October 2013. Fair trial rights remain a grave concern given the lack of independent information about the cases, the government’s insistence on expedited procedures, the fact that terror suspects can be held without legal counsel for months under Chinese law, and China’s record of police torture. While there is reason for the government’s concern with violence, discriminatory and repressive minority policies only exacerbate the problem. In January, police took into custody Ilham Tohti, a Uyghur professor at Beijing’s Minzu University critical of the Chinese government’s Xinjiang policy. Tohti remains detained and is charged with “separatism,” which can result in life imprisonment. In August, Uighur linguist Abduweli Ayup was given an 18-month sentence for “illegal fundraising” after trying to raise money for Uighur-language schools." Sources: Human rights watch: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/china-and-tibet https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/china... and again: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/china-and-tibet https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/china... It appears these sources are blocked in China. Source: http://www.greatfirewallofchina.org/ http://www.greatfirewallofchina.org/
- orangeclk 10y ago
  There are terrorism bases in Xinjiang. They raise fund for terrorism. Some of Xinjiang musilims have the same belief as ISIS. They killed civilians at railway station. But western people don't believe it. Xinjiang terrorist brought a lot of troubles to many Chinese cities even including Shanghai. When attacks happend in Western World, Chinese never said, 'They are not terrorist. They are just part of muslims who fight for their rights while western people persecutes them.' All the world should have sympathy for each other agasint terrorism.

Retric 10y ago

Perceived benefits, or conditioned response? One of this most insidious things about totalitarian states is people self censer to the degree it's hard to know what they actually feel. One example I think most people on HN may see is how people talk about work. It's really rare for people with white collar jobs to admit they hate their job. Sometimes it's years after they quit before someone will say they hated a job.

optforfon 10y ago
Are the two are mutually exclusive? I'd argue both are true to a degree - though "conditioned response" evokes the kind of simplistic "mindless puppet" view of the Chinese perspective I'm trying to avoid. It has its own self contained logic that should be appreciated regardless if it's something from their culture and traditions, or something instilled subversively by the government. All I've tried to do is illustrate that logic as best as I understand it - without passing judgments or condoning it
- Retric 10y ago
  I don't mean people are getting brain washed, just that they may not be expressing their views freely. Being willing to complain to strangers has huge cultural significance.

okc 10y ago

regardless of what you mean, can I just put phrases like: "hysteria about terrorism after the attacks in Xinjiang" into context: "Rather than embrace lawyers, writers, and whistleblowers as allies in an effort to deal effectively with rising social unrest, the government remains hostile to criticism. The government targets activists and their family members for harassment, arbitrary detention, legally baseless imprisonment, torture, and denial of access to adequate medical treatment. It has also significantly narrowed space for the press and the Internet, further limiting opportunities for citizens to press for much-needed reforms." Specifically on Xinjiang: "Following the Urumqi attack, the Chinese government announced a year-long anti-terrorism crackdown in Xinjiang. Within the first month, police arrested 380 suspects and tried more than 300 for terror-related offenses. Authorities also convened thousands of people for the public sentencing of dozens of those tried. In August, authorities executed three Uighurs who were convicted of orchestrating an attack in Beijing’s Tiananmen Square in October 2013. Fair trial rights remain a grave concern given the lack of independent information about the cases, the government’s insistence on expedited procedures, the fact that terror suspects can be held without legal counsel for months under Chinese law, and China’s record of police torture. While there is reason for the government’s concern with violence, discriminatory and repressive minority policies only exacerbate the problem. In January, police took into custody Ilham Tohti, a Uyghur professor at Beijing’s Minzu University critical of the Chinese government’s Xinjiang policy. Tohti remains detained and is charged with “separatism,” which can result in life imprisonment. In August, Uighur linguist Abduweli Ayup was given an 18-month sentence for “illegal fundraising” after trying to raise money for Uighur-language schools." Sources: Human rights watch: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/china-and-tibet https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/china... and again: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/china-and-tibet https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/china... It appears these sources are blocked in China. Source: http://www.greatfirewallofchina.org/ http://www.greatfirewallofchina.org/

orangeclk 10y ago
There are terrorism bases in Xinjiang. They raise fund for terrorism. Some of Xinjiang musilims have the same belief as ISIS. They killed civilians at railway station. But western people don't believe it. Xinjiang terrorist brought a lot of troubles to many Chinese cities even including Shanghai. When attacks happend in Western World, Chinese never said, 'They are not terrorist. They are just part of muslims who fight for their rights while western people persecutes them.' All the world should have sympathy for each other agasint terrorism.