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Sincerely, people should just stop going there. Historically it is extremely difficult for a real regimen change towards democracy to be forced from the outside

Sincerely, people should just stop going there. Historically it is extremely difficult for a real regimen change towards democracy to be forced from the outside. And by going there we are only giving them credit, since they show what they choose to show that does not correspond to the reality of the country. Just close the contact, close the product transactions, let them (the party) to rot for a while. The people will suffer a bit more for a time, but it could be the trigger to have the people finally rebel against the regimen.

mikeash 10y ago
Tourists also give them money. It's an extremely poor country with few sources of foreign currency. Tourism is a good chunk of that, and the proceeds likely go towards building more missiles and nuclear warheads, not anything good.
- dominotw 10y ago
  >Tourism is a good chunk of that, and the proceeds likely go towards building more missiles and nuclear warheads, not anything good. Most tourists are from friendly regimes like china, south asian countries. These people don't get detained because they have the common sense to no break their laws. There is no way 1500 western tourists are funding their nuclear arms .
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Sure, what I said applies to all tourists. The vast majority of American visitors aren't getting detained either, of course. Just observe how it makes the news when they do; if it happened all the time it wouldn't be newsworthy.
dominotw 10y ago
> Sincerely, people should just stop going there. You should watch the TV series 'locked up abroad' all kinds of people get locked up in all kinds of countries. People who got locked up in North Korea were breaking their laws and the country is within their right to punish them. Kenneth Bae - evangelism Lings - Illegal entry/crossing/, Illegal filming. .... Don't go to a foreign country and break their laws.
lisper 10y ago
> Sincerely, people should just stop going there. Because that worked so well in Cuba.
- jeromegv 10y ago
  Americans might have stopped going but there has been 3 millions of non-Americans tourists in Cuba every year.
  - lisper 10y ago
    It's the same situation in Korea, just a different mechanism. The refugee crisis that would result from a DPRK collapse would land on China's doorstep, so the Chinese will do whatever it takes to prevent that from happening. U.S. tourists (or any tourists for that matter) not going to the DPRK won't change that. What might change the situation is people in the DPRK meeting U.S. tourists and seeing with their own eyes that we are not the monsters we have been made out to be. Big societal changes can grow from small seeds of doubt.
    - drawnwren 10y ago
      Unfortunately, you can't actually meet DPRK citizens on a tour to the DPRK. The only way you can visit is by going on a DPRK government-sponsored tour where you are herded between 'culturally important' landmarks by government approved tour guides. The DPRK is leaps and bounds ahead of you on controlling this sort of 'cultural creep.' Also, they appreciate the significant donation to their government for the short tour.
      - lisper 10y ago
        > you can't actually meet DPRK citizens on a tour to the DPRK. Of course you can. Your government minders are DPRK citizens. > The DPRK is leaps and bounds ahead of you on controlling this sort of 'cultural creep.' Of course they are. But a tourism embargo is not going to change that. Look, it's possible that the DPRK really is an evolutionarily stable strategy, and they might be able to maintain their totalitarian regime forever. But if there's a way to crack it, the most likely mechanism is through instilling doubt into individual North Koreans that everything that they are being told is true. The best way to do that is to show them evidence that some of the things that they are being told is not true, and you can't do that if you're not there. You might not be able to do it even if you are there, but at least if you're there, there is a possibility.
sandworm101 10y ago
It isn't so much that people shouldn't go there, but perhaps that the people who are going there shouldn't. A BBC crew isn't a tour group. They are reporters with an agenda. That agenda may only be to tell the truth, but truth telling in NK is a big deal. And every time I hear about a westerner being detained, I feel obligated to dig into things to see whether they were in fact a religious zealot actually seeking to do exactly that with which they are accused. Admittedly that isn't the BBC, but westerners working for "charities" in places like Afghanistan or NK often turn out to be secretive missionaries trying to proselytize their faith.

mikeash 10y ago

Tourists also give them money. It's an extremely poor country with few sources of foreign currency. Tourism is a good chunk of that, and the proceeds likely go towards building more missiles and nuclear warheads, not anything good.

dominotw 10y ago
>Tourism is a good chunk of that, and the proceeds likely go towards building more missiles and nuclear warheads, not anything good. Most tourists are from friendly regimes like china, south asian countries. These people don't get detained because they have the common sense to no break their laws. There is no way 1500 western tourists are funding their nuclear arms .
- mikeash 10y ago
  Sure, what I said applies to all tourists. The vast majority of American visitors aren't getting detained either, of course. Just observe how it makes the news when they do; if it happened all the time it wouldn't be newsworthy.

dominotw 10y ago

> Sincerely, people should just stop going there. You should watch the TV series 'locked up abroad' all kinds of people get locked up in all kinds of countries. People who got locked up in North Korea were breaking their laws and the country is within their right to punish them. Kenneth Bae - evangelism Lings - Illegal entry/crossing/, Illegal filming. .... Don't go to a foreign country and break their laws.

lisper 10y ago

> Sincerely, people should just stop going there. Because that worked so well in Cuba.

jeromegv 10y ago
Americans might have stopped going but there has been 3 millions of non-Americans tourists in Cuba every year.
- lisper 10y ago
  It's the same situation in Korea, just a different mechanism. The refugee crisis that would result from a DPRK collapse would land on China's doorstep, so the Chinese will do whatever it takes to prevent that from happening. U.S. tourists (or any tourists for that matter) not going to the DPRK won't change that. What might change the situation is people in the DPRK meeting U.S. tourists and seeing with their own eyes that we are not the monsters we have been made out to be. Big societal changes can grow from small seeds of doubt.
  - drawnwren 10y ago
    Unfortunately, you can't actually meet DPRK citizens on a tour to the DPRK. The only way you can visit is by going on a DPRK government-sponsored tour where you are herded between 'culturally important' landmarks by government approved tour guides. The DPRK is leaps and bounds ahead of you on controlling this sort of 'cultural creep.' Also, they appreciate the significant donation to their government for the short tour.
    - lisper 10y ago
      > you can't actually meet DPRK citizens on a tour to the DPRK. Of course you can. Your government minders are DPRK citizens. > The DPRK is leaps and bounds ahead of you on controlling this sort of 'cultural creep.' Of course they are. But a tourism embargo is not going to change that. Look, it's possible that the DPRK really is an evolutionarily stable strategy, and they might be able to maintain their totalitarian regime forever. But if there's a way to crack it, the most likely mechanism is through instilling doubt into individual North Koreans that everything that they are being told is true. The best way to do that is to show them evidence that some of the things that they are being told is not true, and you can't do that if you're not there. You might not be able to do it even if you are there, but at least if you're there, there is a possibility.

sandworm101 10y ago

It isn't so much that people shouldn't go there, but perhaps that the people who are going there shouldn't. A BBC crew isn't a tour group. They are reporters with an agenda. That agenda may only be to tell the truth, but truth telling in NK is a big deal. And every time I hear about a westerner being detained, I feel obligated to dig into things to see whether they were in fact a religious zealot actually seeking to do exactly that with which they are accused. Admittedly that isn't the BBC, but westerners working for "charities" in places like Afghanistan or NK often turn out to be secretive missionaries trying to proselytize their faith.