8 ms·

Why it's so hard for Toyota to find out what's wrong

marze 17y ago
I realize some cars have a type of 'black box' already, but it seems that with the potential for software problems, a expanded black box that stores vastly greater amounts of data would make sense. In this case, the computer controls the throttle (no direct mechancial linkage) so it is crazy that the software does not give the brake priority if it believes both are being engaged. A simple 'high braking pressure' sensor that overrides the throttle would be simple enough to be almost immune to any software glitch.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  A simple 'high braking pressure' sensor that overrides the throttle would be simple enough to be almost immune to any software glitch. Fair point. Though pretty much any Engineer (myself included) will tell you that "almost immune" is pretty much a synonym for "bound to happen" :)
- nitrogen 17y ago
  I hope that it is a "high braking pressure" rather than "foot glances the brake pedal" sensor, as I was looking forward to one day learning to heel-toe.
  - TeHCrAzY 17y ago
    It's not that hard. Give it a go somewhere quiet and out of the way, and then just take it easy and practice, I was a few weeks before it was second nature. Just make sure you can actually pull it off in your car before trying it near traffic/children/animals/police.
    - sliverstorm 17y ago
      His point is that you can't heel-toe if brakes kills or misfires the engine (as it often does in karts)
- mattmcknight 17y ago
  Until you are pulling out into an intersection and the brake sensor misfires, preventing you from accelerating out of danger. I prefer the physical off switch.
- jcromartie 17y ago
  > A simple 'high braking pressure' sensor that overrides the throttle VWs have had this for a while. I've heard it called the "drive-by-wire fun police."
Groxx 17y ago
Super-summary, which is also completely self-evident (IMO), which means the article is superfluous: Multiple possibilities mean multiple sources, all of which have to be traced for multiple things. Things are also layered pretty deeply. I still say "sudden acceleration" is different than "pedal was stuck". When the pedal sticks, people say the pedal is sticking, because it's an extremely easy thing to identify (you feel it immediately). Also, intermittent problems are inherently pretty hard to solve.
- bmj 17y ago
  The article might be superfluous for engineers and programmers, but there are plenty of people who read the Washington Post that don't understand engineering processes. I suspect most people figure that Toyota is just hiding something, and that's why they don't have answers.
  - Groxx 17y ago
    And most of those wouldn't be reading articles on it anyway, they're often happy simply thinking the world / governments / corporations / "they" are out to get them. It gives them reason to stay where they are, because they now have proof that it's out of their hands. It's why smear campaigns work. It's not because the content is accurate, it's because so few people actually look at the content, and instead take what they're told and don't look into it further. Articles like this are mostly meant for the few edge-cases who are actually looking for more information, and they'd find it anyway, and to make the people who know better feel good for educating those poor people who don't.
    - bmj 17y ago
      But this isn't the point you made your initial comment. Sure, most of us here understand the engineering processes of figuring out how and why things break, but that doesn't mean an article in a nationally-read newspaper is superfluous.
ErrantX 17y ago
WP is behind a paywall? That sucks. What's Frank Ahrens like as a reporter generally? If this is the quality of his usual stuff I'd be tempted to pay up.
Entlin 17y ago
"It is well-known in our community that there is no scientific, firm way of actually completely verifying and validating software". Mr Rizzoni, "expert in failure analysis" must have never heard of Ada before. Or, of its use in Airbag steering computers, where the code is mathematically proven to be running correctly.
- Frazzydee 17y ago
  Honest question: Is there something about Ada that makes it easier to mathematically prove that the code functions as intended?
  - duncanj 17y ago
    Ada does have useful things like a formal "denotational" semantics that make it easier than certain other languages. http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ada+denotational+semantics&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=... Years ago, when I looked into it, an "operational" semantics hadn't been defined for Ada, but it seems that the modern language has a defined subset or profile.
    - epochwolf 17y ago
      "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." - Donald Knuth
      - duncanj 17y ago
        ?
- shin_lao 17y ago
  There is a difference between proving a small amount of code that controls airbag (and you just prove the written code, not the compiler, not the os, not the hardware) and millions of lines of code running in a complex machine that run in arbitrary conditions (the car).
m104 17y ago
I've had a Toyota suddenly accelerate while I was driving it: http://blog.m104.us/2010/03/07/my-toyota-suddenly-accelerated http://blog.m104.us/2010/03/07/my-toyota-suddenly-accelerate... Bottom line, this isn't an engineering issue or some big coverup in need of Senate hearings. This is a whole group of interests wanting to put Toyota on the stand for something that, while quite random and frightening, is very mundane and embarrassing. What you're witnessing is a modern day witch hunt where Toyota is the accused and has no way of clearing its name or even addressing the possible problems with integrity. The way we (US media and federal government) are treating Toyota is shameful. Hacker News readers, especially, should be very worried that the mechanical and computer engineers of Toyota are being told that they must only make systems with 0% chance of failure, even if the driver could be at fault. Entrepreneurs should be scared to death of the kind of liability that the US Senate is laying at the feet of Toyota's management. Zero risk is acceptable, that is the message.
- m0th87 17y ago
  I think a lot of the outrage is justly squared on the possibility that Toyota covered the issue up for years.
  - elblanco 17y ago
    I've been driving for a long time, a few years shy of 20, and I even polled my father who's been driving for something like 65 years, at one point as a professional long haul truck driver. If we add up all the times we've accidentally hit the gas when we meant to hit the brakes, we come up with zero cases. That's about 80 years of combined, daily, multi-hour a day driving. Of course there are cases where this happens, usually with the elderly around a farmer's market. But this doesn't appear to be the case. Other manufacturers have had various dangerous issues, and they take care of them pretty quick. It's the ones that are denied for a decade, then internal memos are leaked where they coldly calculated the cost of a recall vs. the cost of lawsuits from the loss of human life that stand out in history....anybody remember the Pinto?
    - lief79 17y ago
laut 17y ago
This looks like it could be a combination of on one hand some people that aren't good at operating a car. Accidentally pressing the wrong pedal. Failing to use the clutch or shift into neutral. Like this 68 year old woman who said "And I can't remember if I had my foot on the gas pedal … the brake or the gas, I can't remember" http://cbs3.com/local/Montgomery.County.Toyota.2.1454021.htm http://cbs3.com/local/Montgomery.County.Toyota.2.1454021.htm And on the other a government that wants to hurt a competitor to their Government Motors.
jasongullickson 17y ago
If you don't know what to do when your car accelerates outside of your control (i.e., turn the ignition OFF) then you shouldn't be behind the wheel. There are dozens if not hundreds of reasons a throttle might stick or an engine might suddenly surge and if you can't handle this situation you're a threat to everyone within striking distance of your vehicle. Whether Toyota is to blame for these cases or not, I think anyone who testifies to losing control of their vehicle for these reasons should have their license revoked on the spot.
- wtallis 17y ago
  Turning off the ignition will kill your power brakes and power steering, and may lock the steering column. Not good if you're in traffic or generally not on a straight, flat road. Shifting into neutral while standing on the brake pedal (and clutch if you have one) seems to be the consensus on what's safest.
  - jasongullickson 17y ago
    I've never driven a car that locks the steering wheel when the ignition is turned off (you have to turn it to "lock"). Shifting into neutral is good, except that a racing engine presents dangers of it's own. Killing the ignition removes this risk as well. I'll go on to say that if you can't steer or stop your car without power assist you have yet another strike against you as a operator of an automobile.
    - wtallis 17y ago
      When you're in an unintended acceleration situation, you don't want the only solution to be one that introduces several other sudden, unintended changes in the behavior of the car. And in a panic situation, you're not going to be able to reliably turn the key only one click counterclockwise to the off position instead of two clicks to the lock position.
      - jasongullickson 17y ago
sliverstorm 17y ago
An idea: Motorcycles and racing cars have had kill switches to fight the problem of stuck pedals etc for ages now. Why not do the same in cars? It's true, you have the ignition switch, but what about a simple ON/OFF switch right under the driver's thumb? This solves the potential complexity of the key in strange places, the many positions for the key, and the start button. Educate drivers, same as you do bikers and racing drivers. What about power steering and power brakes? Well, since modern cars are drive by wire, build in an override that forces the engine into idle mode, perhaps with a second override that actually kills the engine (or disengages the transmission) if the engine is still revving high (this could only happen due to a stuck throttle plate, which software can't fix)

marze 17y ago

I realize some cars have a type of 'black box' already, but it seems that with the potential for software problems, a expanded black box that stores vastly greater amounts of data would make sense. In this case, the computer controls the throttle (no direct mechancial linkage) so it is crazy that the software does not give the brake priority if it believes both are being engaged. A simple 'high braking pressure' sensor that overrides the throttle would be simple enough to be almost immune to any software glitch.

ErrantX 17y ago
A simple 'high braking pressure' sensor that overrides the throttle would be simple enough to be almost immune to any software glitch. Fair point. Though pretty much any Engineer (myself included) will tell you that "almost immune" is pretty much a synonym for "bound to happen" :)
nitrogen 17y ago
I hope that it is a "high braking pressure" rather than "foot glances the brake pedal" sensor, as I was looking forward to one day learning to heel-toe.
- TeHCrAzY 17y ago
  It's not that hard. Give it a go somewhere quiet and out of the way, and then just take it easy and practice, I was a few weeks before it was second nature. Just make sure you can actually pull it off in your car before trying it near traffic/children/animals/police.
  - sliverstorm 17y ago
    His point is that you can't heel-toe if brakes kills or misfires the engine (as it often does in karts)
mattmcknight 17y ago
Until you are pulling out into an intersection and the brake sensor misfires, preventing you from accelerating out of danger. I prefer the physical off switch.
jcromartie 17y ago
> A simple 'high braking pressure' sensor that overrides the throttle VWs have had this for a while. I've heard it called the "drive-by-wire fun police."

Groxx 17y ago

Super-summary, which is also completely self-evident (IMO), which means the article is superfluous: Multiple possibilities mean multiple sources, all of which have to be traced for multiple things. Things are also layered pretty deeply. I still say "sudden acceleration" is different than "pedal was stuck". When the pedal sticks, people say the pedal is sticking, because it's an extremely easy thing to identify (you feel it immediately). Also, intermittent problems are inherently pretty hard to solve.

bmj 17y ago
The article might be superfluous for engineers and programmers, but there are plenty of people who read the Washington Post that don't understand engineering processes. I suspect most people figure that Toyota is just hiding something, and that's why they don't have answers.
- Groxx 17y ago
  And most of those wouldn't be reading articles on it anyway, they're often happy simply thinking the world / governments / corporations / "they" are out to get them. It gives them reason to stay where they are, because they now have proof that it's out of their hands. It's why smear campaigns work. It's not because the content is accurate, it's because so few people actually look at the content, and instead take what they're told and don't look into it further. Articles like this are mostly meant for the few edge-cases who are actually looking for more information, and they'd find it anyway, and to make the people who know better feel good for educating those poor people who don't.
  - bmj 17y ago
    But this isn't the point you made your initial comment. Sure, most of us here understand the engineering processes of figuring out how and why things break, but that doesn't mean an article in a nationally-read newspaper is superfluous.

ErrantX 17y ago

WP is behind a paywall? That sucks. What's Frank Ahrens like as a reporter generally? If this is the quality of his usual stuff I'd be tempted to pay up.

Entlin 17y ago

"It is well-known in our community that there is no scientific, firm way of actually completely verifying and validating software". Mr Rizzoni, "expert in failure analysis" must have never heard of Ada before. Or, of its use in Airbag steering computers, where the code is mathematically proven to be running correctly.

Frazzydee 17y ago
Honest question: Is there something about Ada that makes it easier to mathematically prove that the code functions as intended?
- duncanj 17y ago
  Ada does have useful things like a formal "denotational" semantics that make it easier than certain other languages. http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ada+denotational+semantics&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=... Years ago, when I looked into it, an "operational" semantics hadn't been defined for Ada, but it seems that the modern language has a defined subset or profile.
  - epochwolf 17y ago
    "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." - Donald Knuth
    - duncanj 17y ago
      ?
shin_lao 17y ago
There is a difference between proving a small amount of code that controls airbag (and you just prove the written code, not the compiler, not the os, not the hardware) and millions of lines of code running in a complex machine that run in arbitrary conditions (the car).

m104 17y ago

I've had a Toyota suddenly accelerate while I was driving it: http://blog.m104.us/2010/03/07/my-toyota-suddenly-accelerated http://blog.m104.us/2010/03/07/my-toyota-suddenly-accelerate... Bottom line, this isn't an engineering issue or some big coverup in need of Senate hearings. This is a whole group of interests wanting to put Toyota on the stand for something that, while quite random and frightening, is very mundane and embarrassing. What you're witnessing is a modern day witch hunt where Toyota is the accused and has no way of clearing its name or even addressing the possible problems with integrity. The way we (US media and federal government) are treating Toyota is shameful. Hacker News readers, especially, should be very worried that the mechanical and computer engineers of Toyota are being told that they must only make systems with 0% chance of failure, even if the driver could be at fault. Entrepreneurs should be scared to death of the kind of liability that the US Senate is laying at the feet of Toyota's management. Zero risk is acceptable, that is the message.

m0th87 17y ago
I think a lot of the outrage is justly squared on the possibility that Toyota covered the issue up for years.
- elblanco 17y ago
  I've been driving for a long time, a few years shy of 20, and I even polled my father who's been driving for something like 65 years, at one point as a professional long haul truck driver. If we add up all the times we've accidentally hit the gas when we meant to hit the brakes, we come up with zero cases. That's about 80 years of combined, daily, multi-hour a day driving. Of course there are cases where this happens, usually with the elderly around a farmer's market. But this doesn't appear to be the case. Other manufacturers have had various dangerous issues, and they take care of them pretty quick. It's the ones that are denied for a decade, then internal memos are leaked where they coldly calculated the cost of a recall vs. the cost of lawsuits from the loss of human life that stand out in history....anybody remember the Pinto?
  - lief79 17y ago

laut 17y ago

This looks like it could be a combination of on one hand some people that aren't good at operating a car. Accidentally pressing the wrong pedal. Failing to use the clutch or shift into neutral. Like this 68 year old woman who said "And I can't remember if I had my foot on the gas pedal … the brake or the gas, I can't remember" http://cbs3.com/local/Montgomery.County.Toyota.2.1454021.htm http://cbs3.com/local/Montgomery.County.Toyota.2.1454021.htm And on the other a government that wants to hurt a competitor to their Government Motors.

jasongullickson 17y ago

If you don't know what to do when your car accelerates outside of your control (i.e., turn the ignition OFF) then you shouldn't be behind the wheel. There are dozens if not hundreds of reasons a throttle might stick or an engine might suddenly surge and if you can't handle this situation you're a threat to everyone within striking distance of your vehicle. Whether Toyota is to blame for these cases or not, I think anyone who testifies to losing control of their vehicle for these reasons should have their license revoked on the spot.

wtallis 17y ago
Turning off the ignition will kill your power brakes and power steering, and may lock the steering column. Not good if you're in traffic or generally not on a straight, flat road. Shifting into neutral while standing on the brake pedal (and clutch if you have one) seems to be the consensus on what's safest.
- jasongullickson 17y ago
  I've never driven a car that locks the steering wheel when the ignition is turned off (you have to turn it to "lock"). Shifting into neutral is good, except that a racing engine presents dangers of it's own. Killing the ignition removes this risk as well. I'll go on to say that if you can't steer or stop your car without power assist you have yet another strike against you as a operator of an automobile.
  - wtallis 17y ago
    When you're in an unintended acceleration situation, you don't want the only solution to be one that introduces several other sudden, unintended changes in the behavior of the car. And in a panic situation, you're not going to be able to reliably turn the key only one click counterclockwise to the off position instead of two clicks to the lock position.
    - jasongullickson 17y ago

sliverstorm 17y ago

An idea: Motorcycles and racing cars have had kill switches to fight the problem of stuck pedals etc for ages now. Why not do the same in cars? It's true, you have the ignition switch, but what about a simple ON/OFF switch right under the driver's thumb? This solves the potential complexity of the key in strange places, the many positions for the key, and the start button. Educate drivers, same as you do bikers and racing drivers. What about power steering and power brakes? Well, since modern cars are drive by wire, build in an override that forces the engine into idle mode, perhaps with a second override that actually kills the engine (or disengages the transmission) if the engine is still revving high (this could only happen due to a stuck throttle plate, which software can't fix)