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Am I the only person who thinks that writing CSS should not count as "coding"? I feel like the term "coding" should be reserved for writing code that will be c

Am I the only person who thinks that writing CSS should not count as "coding"? I feel like the term "coding" should be reserved for writing code that will be compiled. Anything that's not compiled (but is still Turing complete) is "scripting". CSS, HTML, etc. is just "tagging".

n72 10y ago
What does it matter, beyond some elitist thing? I'm not accusing you of such, but I'm just not sure what another reason might be.
- jackgavigan 10y ago
  I can write simple HTML and do a bit of shell scripting but I stay well away from anything that involves compiling code. I feel like a bit of a fake describing writing HTML or scripting up something in bash as "coding".
georgestephanis 10y ago
You're differentiating procedural versus descriptive code.
- troels 10y ago
  declarative, not descriptive. And you're quite right.
ethanbond 10y ago
"Hey can you tag up a gallery page this week?" - You "What?" - Everyone Not sure that this matters except to preserve some "purists'" (read: pretentious engineers') holy lands. CSS is code. Writing code is called coding. I don't think it should be called programming, though.
- jackgavigan 10y ago
  > I don't think it should be called programming, though. So you're suggesting that the term programming be used to describe writing code that will be compiled?
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    No, I think that's awfully arbitrary. I'd say CSS doesn't really have any computational capabilities (although that's been changing recently) so it doesn't seem right to call it programming. I really don't care though. Call it whatever you want as long as I can understand what you're trying to say. "Tagging" doesn't satisfy that sole requirement.
mikekchar 10y ago
Don't know if you are the only one (I doubt it), but I don't agree :-) Programming (also known as "coding") is instructing the computer what to do. If we wanted to stay as close to the processor as possible, we would all be writing machine language code (without an assembler!). Or maybe we should just write micro-code. Or design everything in hardware... Higher level languages help you abstract things more easily. Of course you can make any arbitrary distinction you want between languages and runtime systems, but to what purpose? And even if you were to make a distinction like you have made, where would you draw the line? Is compiled byte code that is run on a VM "coding" or "scripting"? What about tokenized languages that are simply executing lists of precompiled tokens? What about threaded interpretive languages that compile down to jump tables? Besides, CSS is an excellent example of a declarative programming language. I don't even know that it is not turing complete. I rather suspect it is, actually (though not in any useful way). Writing CSS is programming... just in a different way. Different kinds of abstractions are useful for creating elegant designs. Programming is young so we only have a few abstractions. It behoves the good programmer to learn how to use all of these kinds of abstractions appropriately. Each is powerful an beautiful in its own way.
bazzargh 10y ago
HTML5+CSS is turing complete, btw. (in the same way as a hand-cranked mechanical turing machine) https://github.com/elitheeli/stupid-machines https://github.com/elitheeli/stupid-machines More discussion of that and a jsfiddle demo: http://stackoverflow.com/a/5239256 http://stackoverflow.com/a/5239256
marak830 10y ago
I don't know, I think I have had more issues over the years with HTML/CSS than c# and vb :-p
radamadah 10y ago
If you compare the web with how one makes a desktop application, laying out objects on the display and deciding what gets colored and whatnot would be considered coding - it's just that the web has abstracted away these portions into static files. I feel that the root of my frustration with HTML/CSS is that it enforces a specific design pattern (that of boxes and inheritance) that is so bulky and unintuitive. But I do agree with previous commenters that it seems like splitting hairs to declare web stuff not "coding". In practice, you would very much like a "coder" (someone with a CS background/education) to be handling your HTML/CSS, then have a lay person doing that work.
neutronicus 10y ago
To me, "scripting" means writing code that's not intended for re-use. The compiled / interpreted distinction is sort of unimportant - I certainly wouldn't refer to myself as a "Python programmer", because all I do is use matplotlib to make figures for publication, but the guys and gals who wrote matplotlib are most certainly "Python programmers" in my book.

n72 10y ago

What does it matter, beyond some elitist thing? I'm not accusing you of such, but I'm just not sure what another reason might be.

jackgavigan 10y ago
I can write simple HTML and do a bit of shell scripting but I stay well away from anything that involves compiling code. I feel like a bit of a fake describing writing HTML or scripting up something in bash as "coding".

georgestephanis 10y ago

You're differentiating procedural versus descriptive code.

troels 10y ago
declarative, not descriptive. And you're quite right.

ethanbond 10y ago

"Hey can you tag up a gallery page this week?" - You "What?" - Everyone Not sure that this matters except to preserve some "purists'" (read: pretentious engineers') holy lands. CSS is code. Writing code is called coding. I don't think it should be called programming, though.

jackgavigan 10y ago
> I don't think it should be called programming, though. So you're suggesting that the term programming be used to describe writing code that will be compiled?
- ethanbond 10y ago
  No, I think that's awfully arbitrary. I'd say CSS doesn't really have any computational capabilities (although that's been changing recently) so it doesn't seem right to call it programming. I really don't care though. Call it whatever you want as long as I can understand what you're trying to say. "Tagging" doesn't satisfy that sole requirement.

mikekchar 10y ago

Don't know if you are the only one (I doubt it), but I don't agree :-) Programming (also known as "coding") is instructing the computer what to do. If we wanted to stay as close to the processor as possible, we would all be writing machine language code (without an assembler!). Or maybe we should just write micro-code. Or design everything in hardware... Higher level languages help you abstract things more easily. Of course you can make any arbitrary distinction you want between languages and runtime systems, but to what purpose? And even if you were to make a distinction like you have made, where would you draw the line? Is compiled byte code that is run on a VM "coding" or "scripting"? What about tokenized languages that are simply executing lists of precompiled tokens? What about threaded interpretive languages that compile down to jump tables? Besides, CSS is an excellent example of a declarative programming language. I don't even know that it is not turing complete. I rather suspect it is, actually (though not in any useful way). Writing CSS is programming... just in a different way. Different kinds of abstractions are useful for creating elegant designs. Programming is young so we only have a few abstractions. It behoves the good programmer to learn how to use all of these kinds of abstractions appropriately. Each is powerful an beautiful in its own way.

bazzargh 10y ago

HTML5+CSS is turing complete, btw. (in the same way as a hand-cranked mechanical turing machine) https://github.com/elitheeli/stupid-machines https://github.com/elitheeli/stupid-machines More discussion of that and a jsfiddle demo: http://stackoverflow.com/a/5239256 http://stackoverflow.com/a/5239256

marak830 10y ago

I don't know, I think I have had more issues over the years with HTML/CSS than c# and vb :-p

radamadah 10y ago

If you compare the web with how one makes a desktop application, laying out objects on the display and deciding what gets colored and whatnot would be considered coding - it's just that the web has abstracted away these portions into static files. I feel that the root of my frustration with HTML/CSS is that it enforces a specific design pattern (that of boxes and inheritance) that is so bulky and unintuitive. But I do agree with previous commenters that it seems like splitting hairs to declare web stuff not "coding". In practice, you would very much like a "coder" (someone with a CS background/education) to be handling your HTML/CSS, then have a lay person doing that work.

neutronicus 10y ago

To me, "scripting" means writing code that's not intended for re-use. The compiled / interpreted distinction is sort of unimportant - I certainly wouldn't refer to myself as a "Python programmer", because all I do is use matplotlib to make figures for publication, but the guys and gals who wrote matplotlib are most certainly "Python programmers" in my book.