5 ms·

Advertising is mind pollution

49 points by comice 17y ago

stingraycharles 17y ago
This argument is based on false assumptions. Funding your content through advertising is hugely inefficient. Of the people who visit your site, usually only a tiny proportion click on (or notice) an advert, and only a tiny proportion of those then spends any money. This assumes that just viewing an advertisement doesn't create value for an advertiser. It does. Look at the average TV channel or print magazine for evidence. I’ve heard Google pass as little as one twelfth onto the publisher in some cases While I'm not sure about Google, I do know that most display advertising networks pay their publishers around 30% - 50% of the gross income. But seriously, advertising is a broken method of paying for stuff. If we could unobtrusively pay for content on the Internet, I’m sure enough people would do so to more than cover costs of production. While I agree that there is probably a decent community of people that would probably pay for content online, I'm not convinced that this would be true for most people. Sites that offer a subscription to get rid of the ads, usually have very few subscribers. People simply like free stuff, and don't like to pay for content. Now this could indeed be due to the payment model, I'm not sure; maybe something facebook-connect-like for paid content would work, but I'm still not convinced that a large enough base of people would actually pay the same money as they're generating in advertising value, to make this work. Let's take a few very large sites, and imagine what would happen if they went to a payment supported revenue model, instead of advertising supported. Let's say, Google or CNN. What would happen if they started putting up a paywall? Would people really start paying for those services, or would they simply move to a competing site, which is ad-supported and for free? I'm willing to bet most people would go for the last option. People just don't mind ads as much as they mind paying for stuff. (Disclaimer: I work in online ads.)
MikeCapone 17y ago
How many optional paid subscription sites have been successful? How many mandatory paid subscription sites have been successful? I think those questions are important. I don't know the answer, but my guess is "almost none".
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- ams6110 17y ago
  Mandatory paid subscriptions for content that is of value to the subscribers does work. Case in point our local newspaper, which requires a subscription to read content other than the classified ads. If you are not a subscriber, all you get are the headlines and a "teaser" sentence. Because the local news published here is not generally available on wire services or other sources, there is not really an alternative to paying for this content if you want it (other than buying a physical copy of the paper itself). It's really a question of the value of your content. If enough people are interested in it that you can make significant money with ads, you probably could also get people to pay for it directly. I think micropayments per individual piece of content would make the most sense here, i.e. I'm a lot more likely to pay $0.10 to read some interesting sounding thing than I am to commit to a much more costly paid subscription to your site.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    That works for small papers like that - especially if there is no alternative. What about national or international media/news outlets. Paywalls simply drive people away because there are alternatives - which are free (and ad supported). If enough people are interested in it that you can make significant money with ads, you probably could also get people to pay for it directly The numbers dont work out though. Look at any big website's stats and they will almost certainly make more out of advertising than subscribers. I'm a lot more likely to pay $0.10 to read some interesting sounding thing than I am to commit to a much more costly paid subscription to your site. This gets said a lot. Firstly I dont believe it is actually true; it's easy enough to say but would you really do it. Often it is just rationalisation of current behaviour. Think again to all the content you read today on blogs/media outlets that run advertising. How many would you "buy" into at $.10? How much is that adding up to? Speaking personally I could be paying about $2-5 a day for content.... that's quite a lot.
    - bricestacey 17y ago
ErrantX 17y ago
Lets be clear: advertising has value for us as a consumer (imagine removing all advertising for a moment; how sucky and inefficient would that be). How exactly would you find stuff otherwise :) It is bad, unethical, gawdy or inefficient advertising that has huge negative value. And boy do we see a lot - the net result being advertising appears to be pretty shoddy in general. This post didn't really suggest any effective solution. What we need is: - alternative revenue models that work instead of ads - efforts to prevent annoying or unethical or just plain shoddy adverts
- orangecat 17y ago
  advertising has value for us as a consumer Advertising is an attempt to make us modify our behavior, regardless of whether it's in our best interests to do so. Marketing and truth are orthogonal. How exactly would you find stuff otherwise :) I'd look for professional and customer reviews which would likely convey more useful information than ads with bikini girls next to the product.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > Advertising is an attempt to make us modify our behavior Absolutely. That doesn't mean it is valueless. > I'd look for professional and customer reviews which would likely convey more useful information than ads with bikini girls next to the product. That works if your looking for something. How many useful products would you miss? Quite a lot I bet :)
  - petercooper 17y ago
    I'd look for professional and customer reviews which would likely convey more useful information than ads with bikini girls next to the product. How would the customers who make those reviews have found the product or business in question? Say you open a Chinese restaurant or start a local news site. How do you get people in the door (virtual or otherwise) without printing flyers, advertising on the Web, or buying space in the local paper? It has to start somewhere for your reviews to exist.
    - 17y ago
sabat 17y ago
Makes perfect sense from a over-logical, geeky point of view. (Disclaimer: I am a geek.) What I've learned over my years is that our view of the world isn't necessarily most people's -- if it was, then this guy would be totally right. But he's not. Online advertising isn't optimal, but given the number of "normal" people who make Google tons of advertising cash every quarter, this "mind pollution" argument doesn't stand up. usually only a tiny proportion click on (or notice) an advert That's right. A tiny proportion -- generally something like 1-5%. As a geek you'd think: highly inefficient; find another means. But marketing people think differently. They think, for instance, that if you're cold-calling 100 people and make just one sale then you're doing well. 1 out of 100. So that's why online ads work -- you go in expecting a 1% click-through rate, and if you do better, cool.
- jbm 17y ago
  Making money has nothing to do with whether or not it is mind pollution. They are two separate arguments. It is undeniable that advertising makes money for everyone involved; the question is whether or not it is damaging to the mental state of the average person. (my two yen based on my experiences says "Yes"; take it for what it is worth). If it is damaging I don't personally consider it immoral to remove the advertising. Whether or not it is profitable is meaningless to the question of whether or not it is right.
jon_dahl 17y ago
I resonate with this article. More often than not, I find ads annoying and obnoxious, and give me a negative impression of the advertising company. Maybe my awareness of a brand is increased, but I end up going out of my way to avoid brands or products that pester me with annoying ads. The problem is that advertising is broken. I shouldn't see ads for feminine hygiene products, cars, McDonalds, or Verizon. I'm not the right market for any of these things. It's a waste of my time and the advertiser's money, and I do experience these things as "mind pollution". On the other hand, I'd be happy to watch ads for Google, Apple, books, local restaurants, good movies, and good beer. Whoever figures out how to apply Permission Marketing to mainstream advertising is going to make a lot of money, and will make the world a better place.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  My feelings are very much the opposite. When I see a big ole' brand advert on last.fm, I have good feelings towards that company. They are supporting a great free product that I enjoy.
yason 17y ago
Advertising is mind pollution — if you have a mind. If everyone was like us there would be no advertising. Personally, maybe once a year I give at least some thought to an advertisement I've seen, and I remember a couple of occasions where I've actually bought something. But mostly I find advertisements boring and generally just avoid them because usually I already know what I'm looking for, if I'm looking for something.
- petercooper 17y ago
  because usually I already know what I'm looking for, if I'm looking for something. How? Let's say you want to buy a computer and you go direct to, say, Dell. How would you have heard of Dell if not for advertising? Seen a Dell at someone else's house? How did they hear about Dell? It has to start somewhere.
  - pg 17y ago
    Facebook grew without advertising.
    - petercooper 17y ago
      Facebook is an inherently social business that users only find useful if they promote it - so they do. An edge case. Bringing Facebook-like user promotion to a company selling everyday products would probably require users becoming affiliates and getting kickbacks. That can work (e.g. Avon) but having my friends potentially being shills seems more sinister than regular advertising. Thinking about this, though, did bring another option to mind that many startups use: press mentions. Branson and his Virgin companies are masters at this. So are Apple, but they're still massive on the advertising.
    - jacoblyles 17y ago
      Many new and superior entrants into a market used advertising to gain a foothold. Think Sears. The economics of the web are different and have lowered the value of advertising compared to the value of word of mouth. But there is still some value left in advertising, especially in markets for more traditional goods that don't spread as easily through viral means.
tfincannon 17y ago
iPad might enable a paid content model that works. It has a frictionless payment system that handles small transactions. iPhone OS offers more robust interaction capabilities than web technology. Most importantly, the public is accustomed to paying for apps. Paid content doesn't work on the web because people expect it to be free. Consumers view apps as objects, more like books or magazines, which they expect to pay for.
- tuacker 17y ago
  Easy payment is something we need to improve on. Online payment needs to become more accesible. We've got Google Checkout, PayPal, credit cards,... but they're all just proxies to where my money is (bank account). They all need to be set up and not every site accepts them, requiring you to join another system. Plus on different parts of the world some of them might not even be available to you at all. I wish banks worldwide would work together to create a fast and reliable online wire transfer protocol. (fast, solid API to verify payments,...)
njharman 17y ago
Advertising is very clearly propaganda and much of it is state of the art psychology to influence people's purchasing decisions. In other words "mind-control". I have no idea why society puts up with it. (I guess it slowly grew on us and have accepted it in seemingly innocuous steps). I bet most people (well the non-wingnuts at least) would say they are against government propaganda. And the government is supposedly for the people. But they're OK with corporate propaganda. Corporations by design and law exist to extract as much value in the form of money or labor as is possible from people.
- houseabsolute 17y ago
  > In other words "mind-control". I could say the same of your comment. Maybe you should not have been allowed to post it. > I have no idea why society puts up with it. Think harder. The desire to allow owners of corporations some freedom in which to grow them? The desire to avoid unnecessary regulations? The lack of hard evidence that advertising actually causes significant harm? The individual's thought that someday they might benefit from being able to advertise their own goods or services? All of these are possible reasons why society puts up with it. I am truly surprised that you could manage to have "no idea" why. Actually, I suspect that you are lying and you do have an idea, you just claim to have no idea to emphasize your point. > I bet most people (well the non-wingnuts at least) would say they are against government propaganda. And the government is supposedly for the people. The point is that the government should not actually need propaganda if it is acting in the peoples' best interests. Through history most cases of government propaganda have been when the government is subverting its people's interests and lying to them about it. > But they're OK with corporate propaganda. Corporations typically can't force you to do anything at gunpoint. This is the main reason why they're allowed much more leeway than the government when carrying out their wishes. To be more explicit, it is precisely because the people wish to _keep_ the government on their own side that they try to limit its means to oppose their own best interest. > Corporations by design and law exist to extract as much value in the form of money or labor as is possible from people. I see this spouted a lot, but I also see that many, maybe most corporations do not do what you say. Actually, I can think of many laws that in manifold ways restrict corporations from doing what you claim the law and their "design" forces them to do. For example, there are labor laws, trade laws, environmental regulations, and securities laws, many of which prevent corporations from maximizing profit or labor extracted. Actually, with this realization, I think I can safely treat this claim as a bookend without any meaning save its rhetorical, knee-jerk inducing quality.

49 points by comice 17y ago

This argument is based on false assumptions. Funding your content through advertising is hugely inefficient. Of the people who visit your site, usually only a tiny proportion click on (or notice) an advert, and only a tiny proportion of those then spends any money. This assumes that just viewing an advertisement doesn't create value for an advertiser. It does. Look at the average TV channel or print magazine for evidence. I’ve heard Google pass as little as one twelfth onto the publisher in some cases While I'm not sure about Google, I do know that most display advertising networks pay their publishers around 30% - 50% of the gross income. But seriously, advertising is a broken method of paying for stuff. If we could unobtrusively pay for content on the Internet, I’m sure enough people would do so to more than cover costs of production. While I agree that there is probably a decent community of people that would probably pay for content online, I'm not convinced that this would be true for most people. Sites that offer a subscription to get rid of the ads, usually have very few subscribers. People simply like free stuff, and don't like to pay for content. Now this could indeed be due to the payment model, I'm not sure; maybe something facebook-connect-like for paid content would work, but I'm still not convinced that a large enough base of people would actually pay the same money as they're generating in advertising value, to make this work. Let's take a few very large sites, and imagine what would happen if they went to a payment supported revenue model, instead of advertising supported. Let's say, Google or CNN. What would happen if they started putting up a paywall? Would people really start paying for those services, or would they simply move to a competing site, which is ad-supported and for free? I'm willing to bet most people would go for the last option. People just don't mind ads as much as they mind paying for stuff. (Disclaimer: I work in online ads.)

MikeCapone 17y ago

How many optional paid subscription sites have been successful? How many mandatory paid subscription sites have been successful? I think those questions are important. I don't know the answer, but my guess is "almost none".

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
ams6110 17y ago
Mandatory paid subscriptions for content that is of value to the subscribers does work. Case in point our local newspaper, which requires a subscription to read content other than the classified ads. If you are not a subscriber, all you get are the headlines and a "teaser" sentence. Because the local news published here is not generally available on wire services or other sources, there is not really an alternative to paying for this content if you want it (other than buying a physical copy of the paper itself). It's really a question of the value of your content. If enough people are interested in it that you can make significant money with ads, you probably could also get people to pay for it directly. I think micropayments per individual piece of content would make the most sense here, i.e. I'm a lot more likely to pay $0.10 to read some interesting sounding thing than I am to commit to a much more costly paid subscription to your site.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  That works for small papers like that - especially if there is no alternative. What about national or international media/news outlets. Paywalls simply drive people away because there are alternatives - which are free (and ad supported). If enough people are interested in it that you can make significant money with ads, you probably could also get people to pay for it directly The numbers dont work out though. Look at any big website's stats and they will almost certainly make more out of advertising than subscribers. I'm a lot more likely to pay $0.10 to read some interesting sounding thing than I am to commit to a much more costly paid subscription to your site. This gets said a lot. Firstly I dont believe it is actually true; it's easy enough to say but would you really do it. Often it is just rationalisation of current behaviour. Think again to all the content you read today on blogs/media outlets that run advertising. How many would you "buy" into at $.10? How much is that adding up to? Speaking personally I could be paying about $2-5 a day for content.... that's quite a lot.
  - bricestacey 17y ago

ErrantX 17y ago

Lets be clear: advertising has value for us as a consumer (imagine removing all advertising for a moment; how sucky and inefficient would that be). How exactly would you find stuff otherwise :) It is bad, unethical, gawdy or inefficient advertising that has huge negative value. And boy do we see a lot - the net result being advertising appears to be pretty shoddy in general. This post didn't really suggest any effective solution. What we need is: - alternative revenue models that work instead of ads - efforts to prevent annoying or unethical or just plain shoddy adverts

orangecat 17y ago
advertising has value for us as a consumer Advertising is an attempt to make us modify our behavior, regardless of whether it's in our best interests to do so. Marketing and truth are orthogonal. How exactly would you find stuff otherwise :) I'd look for professional and customer reviews which would likely convey more useful information than ads with bikini girls next to the product.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > Advertising is an attempt to make us modify our behavior Absolutely. That doesn't mean it is valueless. > I'd look for professional and customer reviews which would likely convey more useful information than ads with bikini girls next to the product. That works if your looking for something. How many useful products would you miss? Quite a lot I bet :)
- petercooper 17y ago
  I'd look for professional and customer reviews which would likely convey more useful information than ads with bikini girls next to the product. How would the customers who make those reviews have found the product or business in question? Say you open a Chinese restaurant or start a local news site. How do you get people in the door (virtual or otherwise) without printing flyers, advertising on the Web, or buying space in the local paper? It has to start somewhere for your reviews to exist.
  - 17y ago

sabat 17y ago

Makes perfect sense from a over-logical, geeky point of view. (Disclaimer: I am a geek.) What I've learned over my years is that our view of the world isn't necessarily most people's -- if it was, then this guy would be totally right. But he's not. Online advertising isn't optimal, but given the number of "normal" people who make Google tons of advertising cash every quarter, this "mind pollution" argument doesn't stand up. usually only a tiny proportion click on (or notice) an advert That's right. A tiny proportion -- generally something like 1-5%. As a geek you'd think: highly inefficient; find another means. But marketing people think differently. They think, for instance, that if you're cold-calling 100 people and make just one sale then you're doing well. 1 out of 100. So that's why online ads work -- you go in expecting a 1% click-through rate, and if you do better, cool.

jbm 17y ago
Making money has nothing to do with whether or not it is mind pollution. They are two separate arguments. It is undeniable that advertising makes money for everyone involved; the question is whether or not it is damaging to the mental state of the average person. (my two yen based on my experiences says "Yes"; take it for what it is worth). If it is damaging I don't personally consider it immoral to remove the advertising. Whether or not it is profitable is meaningless to the question of whether or not it is right.

jon_dahl 17y ago

I resonate with this article. More often than not, I find ads annoying and obnoxious, and give me a negative impression of the advertising company. Maybe my awareness of a brand is increased, but I end up going out of my way to avoid brands or products that pester me with annoying ads. The problem is that advertising is broken. I shouldn't see ads for feminine hygiene products, cars, McDonalds, or Verizon. I'm not the right market for any of these things. It's a waste of my time and the advertiser's money, and I do experience these things as "mind pollution". On the other hand, I'd be happy to watch ads for Google, Apple, books, local restaurants, good movies, and good beer. Whoever figures out how to apply Permission Marketing to mainstream advertising is going to make a lot of money, and will make the world a better place.

jacoblyles 17y ago
My feelings are very much the opposite. When I see a big ole' brand advert on last.fm, I have good feelings towards that company. They are supporting a great free product that I enjoy.

yason 17y ago

Advertising is mind pollution — if you have a mind. If everyone was like us there would be no advertising. Personally, maybe once a year I give at least some thought to an advertisement I've seen, and I remember a couple of occasions where I've actually bought something. But mostly I find advertisements boring and generally just avoid them because usually I already know what I'm looking for, if I'm looking for something.

petercooper 17y ago
because usually I already know what I'm looking for, if I'm looking for something. How? Let's say you want to buy a computer and you go direct to, say, Dell. How would you have heard of Dell if not for advertising? Seen a Dell at someone else's house? How did they hear about Dell? It has to start somewhere.
- pg 17y ago
  Facebook grew without advertising.
  - petercooper 17y ago
    Facebook is an inherently social business that users only find useful if they promote it - so they do. An edge case. Bringing Facebook-like user promotion to a company selling everyday products would probably require users becoming affiliates and getting kickbacks. That can work (e.g. Avon) but having my friends potentially being shills seems more sinister than regular advertising. Thinking about this, though, did bring another option to mind that many startups use: press mentions. Branson and his Virgin companies are masters at this. So are Apple, but they're still massive on the advertising.
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    Many new and superior entrants into a market used advertising to gain a foothold. Think Sears. The economics of the web are different and have lowered the value of advertising compared to the value of word of mouth. But there is still some value left in advertising, especially in markets for more traditional goods that don't spread as easily through viral means.

tfincannon 17y ago

iPad might enable a paid content model that works. It has a frictionless payment system that handles small transactions. iPhone OS offers more robust interaction capabilities than web technology. Most importantly, the public is accustomed to paying for apps. Paid content doesn't work on the web because people expect it to be free. Consumers view apps as objects, more like books or magazines, which they expect to pay for.

tuacker 17y ago
Easy payment is something we need to improve on. Online payment needs to become more accesible. We've got Google Checkout, PayPal, credit cards,... but they're all just proxies to where my money is (bank account). They all need to be set up and not every site accepts them, requiring you to join another system. Plus on different parts of the world some of them might not even be available to you at all. I wish banks worldwide would work together to create a fast and reliable online wire transfer protocol. (fast, solid API to verify payments,...)

njharman 17y ago

Advertising is very clearly propaganda and much of it is state of the art psychology to influence people's purchasing decisions. In other words "mind-control". I have no idea why society puts up with it. (I guess it slowly grew on us and have accepted it in seemingly innocuous steps). I bet most people (well the non-wingnuts at least) would say they are against government propaganda. And the government is supposedly for the people. But they're OK with corporate propaganda. Corporations by design and law exist to extract as much value in the form of money or labor as is possible from people.

houseabsolute 17y ago
> In other words "mind-control". I could say the same of your comment. Maybe you should not have been allowed to post it. > I have no idea why society puts up with it. Think harder. The desire to allow owners of corporations some freedom in which to grow them? The desire to avoid unnecessary regulations? The lack of hard evidence that advertising actually causes significant harm? The individual's thought that someday they might benefit from being able to advertise their own goods or services? All of these are possible reasons why society puts up with it. I am truly surprised that you could manage to have "no idea" why. Actually, I suspect that you are lying and you do have an idea, you just claim to have no idea to emphasize your point. > I bet most people (well the non-wingnuts at least) would say they are against government propaganda. And the government is supposedly for the people. The point is that the government should not actually need propaganda if it is acting in the peoples' best interests. Through history most cases of government propaganda have been when the government is subverting its people's interests and lying to them about it. > But they're OK with corporate propaganda. Corporations typically can't force you to do anything at gunpoint. This is the main reason why they're allowed much more leeway than the government when carrying out their wishes. To be more explicit, it is precisely because the people wish to _keep_ the government on their own side that they try to limit its means to oppose their own best interest. > Corporations by design and law exist to extract as much value in the form of money or labor as is possible from people. I see this spouted a lot, but I also see that many, maybe most corporations do not do what you say. Actually, I can think of many laws that in manifold ways restrict corporations from doing what you claim the law and their "design" forces them to do. For example, there are labor laws, trade laws, environmental regulations, and securities laws, many of which prevent corporations from maximizing profit or labor extracted. Actually, with this realization, I think I can safely treat this claim as a bookend without any meaning save its rhetorical, knee-jerk inducing quality.