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> any mention of religion on an online forum degenerates into a religious argument. Why? Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript Then later

by ixtli 10y ago

> any mention of religion on an online forum degenerates into a religious argument. Why? Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript Then later > the question of the relative merits of programming languages often degenerates into a religious war, because so many programmers identify as X programmers or Y programmers. Also as another poster said, this works because he's been able to go his entire life choosing what to put in and take out of his identity because he is of the privileged class in his society. If someone perpetrated violence on him because of something he _couldn't_ choose, say, his skin color, I have a feeling he'd be less likely to conclude that "The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you." The people to whom this "labeling" is most important are those who were labeled. Not those who label themselves.

pbreit 10y ago
I got the sense this article trended now because that's exactly where JavaScript/Node is right now.
lliamander 10y ago
> If someone perpetrated violence on him because of something he _couldn't_ choose, say, his skin color, I have a feeling he'd be less likely to conclude that "The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you." I disagree. Each person reacts to circumstances differently. It might lead him to reject (what he perceives as) arbitrary labels all the more because others were using it as an excuse to hurt him. And yes, these labels often come from outside of us, but I think his point is to resist internalizing them. > The people to whom this "labeling" is most important are those who were labeled. Not those who label themselves. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. We all get labelled, we all have cultural scripts we are expected to follow. And yes, some have more negative labels. Are you saying such people are more justified in internalizing and defining themselves by their labels? I guess I'm just curious as to whether you accept his premise that striving for a minimalist identity helps remain objective? Is it not worth analysing in our own lives what identities we have internalized that we could do without?
abtinf 10y ago
If I attack you because your identity conflicts with my identity, say over differing skin color, then it demonstrates his original point: the label I've given myself is making me behave dumb/stupid/evil. My action creates no obligation on your part to adopt the identity I've assigned to you. Your station in life has no impact on whether you will accept the label; you are a human capable of reason and you have free will - the choice is yours. In literature, Tom of Uncle Tom's Cabin is a solid example of this. Tom, a heroic black slave, rejects the labels and associated moral principals others (both black and white) wish to assign to him. He acts in accordance with his self-selected moral convictions. And when confronted with an ultimate evil that demands the surrender of not only his body but also his reasoning mind - demands he accept an unchosen identity - he refuses.
- shanusmagnus 10y ago
  I had a friend once who would insult people and then when they got angry or hurt he would say: I don't control your feelings, you control your feelings. Technically true, perhaps, depending on certain philosophically assumptions. But practically absurd. And certainly a terrible mental model about how humans work in situ.
tomp 10y ago
His conclusion is still valid even in presence of immutable labels; you can't help being black or gay, but you can help by not being religious or a "Python programmer".
DavidWanjiru 10y ago
"Keep" implies agency and control. Keep it simple. Keep me posted. Keep your identity small. The entire article is premised on the existence of this agency and control. If it is lacking, then I would argue that that's not the type of situation he is speaking to.
- tomhoward 10y ago
  Such an obvious point shouln't have to be made, but sadly it often does these days, so thanks for making it so eloquently.
tempodox 10y ago
> Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript But it does happen with JS, among others. Critical remarks on PLs are met with the most religious of fervour in HN threads.
ikeboy 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white Arguably some black people label themselves.
- goldbrick 10y ago
  And the finger pointing begins.

by ixtli 10y ago

pbreit 10y ago

I got the sense this article trended now because that's exactly where JavaScript/Node is right now.

lliamander 10y ago

> If someone perpetrated violence on him because of something he _couldn't_ choose, say, his skin color, I have a feeling he'd be less likely to conclude that "The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you." I disagree. Each person reacts to circumstances differently. It might lead him to reject (what he perceives as) arbitrary labels all the more because others were using it as an excuse to hurt him. And yes, these labels often come from outside of us, but I think his point is to resist internalizing them. > The people to whom this "labeling" is most important are those who were labeled. Not those who label themselves. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. We all get labelled, we all have cultural scripts we are expected to follow. And yes, some have more negative labels. Are you saying such people are more justified in internalizing and defining themselves by their labels? I guess I'm just curious as to whether you accept his premise that striving for a minimalist identity helps remain objective? Is it not worth analysing in our own lives what identities we have internalized that we could do without?

abtinf 10y ago

If I attack you because your identity conflicts with my identity, say over differing skin color, then it demonstrates his original point: the label I've given myself is making me behave dumb/stupid/evil. My action creates no obligation on your part to adopt the identity I've assigned to you. Your station in life has no impact on whether you will accept the label; you are a human capable of reason and you have free will - the choice is yours. In literature, Tom of Uncle Tom's Cabin is a solid example of this. Tom, a heroic black slave, rejects the labels and associated moral principals others (both black and white) wish to assign to him. He acts in accordance with his self-selected moral convictions. And when confronted with an ultimate evil that demands the surrender of not only his body but also his reasoning mind - demands he accept an unchosen identity - he refuses.

shanusmagnus 10y ago
I had a friend once who would insult people and then when they got angry or hurt he would say: I don't control your feelings, you control your feelings. Technically true, perhaps, depending on certain philosophically assumptions. But practically absurd. And certainly a terrible mental model about how humans work in situ.

tomp 10y ago

His conclusion is still valid even in presence of immutable labels; you can't help being black or gay, but you can help by not being religious or a "Python programmer".

DavidWanjiru 10y ago

"Keep" implies agency and control. Keep it simple. Keep me posted. Keep your identity small. The entire article is premised on the existence of this agency and control. If it is lacking, then I would argue that that's not the type of situation he is speaking to.

tomhoward 10y ago
Such an obvious point shouln't have to be made, but sadly it often does these days, so thanks for making it so eloquently.

tempodox 10y ago

> Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript But it does happen with JS, among others. Critical remarks on PLs are met with the most religious of fervour in HN threads.

ikeboy 10y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white Arguably some black people label themselves.

goldbrick 10y ago
And the finger pointing begins.