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How is this possible? I think one key aspect that is missing is that boot camp graduates aren't straight off the barista lineup. I took one at age 28 after hav

How is this possible? I think one key aspect that is missing is that boot camp graduates aren't straight off the barista lineup. I took one at age 28 after having worked in a technical role in finance since undergrad. The average age of my class was probably 29. Beyond just time in the workforce, I had a double major in math and economics with a minor in applied statistics. Had I dropped "Behavioral Economics" and taken "Data Structures" along with some other random course, I could have switched my Econ major to a minor in CS. Many people in my class were of a similar background.

ammon 10y ago
Good point. About 50% of the bootcamp folks we work with have some sort of technical background before the bootcamp. The other 50% do not, however, which is really interesting! (I have no idea how this compares to the bootcamp population as a whole. I would guess that folks with a tech background are overrepresented in the group that passes our screening step)
- lloyd-christmas 10y ago
  Definitely. I had a wide range of classmates. We had several people that were project managers looking to gain some technical knowledge/communication skills. They had no intention of becoming programmers. A good chunk were designers who had html/css knowledge that were looking to expand their reach. A couple were a drain on my education. My greatest criticism of the programs is that it's an educational boom, so there isn't a stronger filtering process in place yet.
- RegEx 10y ago
  It depends on the school. Some bootcamps have very low acceptance rates to keep their placement numbers high - as that is their main marketing point. They bring in people who can demonstrate they already have the mindset but don't have the knowledge. Other bootcamps just need you to be able to use your computer and you're in.
Alex3917 10y ago
Right, all else being equal I would expect bootcamp grads to be significantly more valuable than CS majors, since presumably they're also experts in design, marketing, product management, or some other area. In addition to being able to contribute in a non-development capacity, even in terms of software being good at coding is probably at most 20% of what makes a good developer.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  Being good at coding, in the sense of making robust software products that can stably support components of a business, is way more than 20% of the value of a developer. Additionally, in my experience, it's way easier to teach non-development skills to thoughtful programmers than it is to teach adequate programming skills to thoughtful non-programmers. Some of the best designers, managers, product analysts, business intelligence analysts, marketing strategists, and client engagement managers I've ever met all came from heavily theoretical CS backgrounds and spent a lot of their early careers mostly coding. Understanding the interrelationships between business components and business needs often has many similarities with designing quality software. And many of the pitfalls of software (e.g. monolithic classes, no separate interfaces, no solid tests) are directly analogous to non-software organizational problems as well. Plenty of people who gain technical credential through a bootcamp will go on to do a great job, and their other skills will be of tremendous value. But it just seems absurd to me to try to make some kind of rank ordering between bootcamp grads and CS degree holders. You're discounting just how highly effective CS degree holders are at translating their very general skill set into other domains of work. Generally speaking, they are very good at this -- so good that it's often threatening to non-technical people who would prefer if there was an easy stereotype suggesting that CS people should be siloed away from non-tech work.
  - Swizec 10y ago
    > Generally speaking, they are very good at this -- so good that it's often threatening to non-technical people who would prefer if there was an easy stereotype suggesting that CS people should be siloed away from non-tech work. It's almost like having a degree in abstract thinking, designing systems, and discovering hidden requirements makes you good at designing systems to solve complex problems. Which is what most non-technical work is. Taking an ill-defined problem, and defining+solving it.
6stringmerc 10y ago
That's a path I've been considering as well - had a lot of CS background, hated running Unix compilers instead of working with HTML & C++ (already learned some in HS) - so ditched the major. Went with English, which, you know, is another language 'n all. Got into the working world, still have tech savvy... So to me I have to question the ROI of walking away from 5+ years of professional advancement and jump into software development again - by way of an in-person bootcamp. I'm not going back to a Uni or interested in online learning settings. However, I do recall the concepts and am certainly excited by the developments in languages and technology since watching some of the roots take hold. Being a "creative" person who can speak "engineering" is one of my strongest, and often the most unusual of my professional strengths.
- infinite8s 10y ago
  Have you heard of CAR (computer assisted reporting)? The field of data journalism requires people who are good at storytelling combined with technical savvy to be able to pull out stories from lots of (usually messy) data - http://www.poynter.org/2005/a-guide-to-computer-assisted-reporting/69334/ http://www.poynter.org/2005/a-guide-to-computer-assisted-rep...
  - 6stringmerc 10y ago
    No I have not and I thank you very, very much for sharing that! I will most certainly look into it. I love the concept as you've described and if I've got an aptitude that sounds like the kind of stuff I'd wake up every day wanting to jump in and work on. Will check it out, thanks again!
- lloyd-christmas 10y ago
  I took a pretty significant pay cut switching from an equities trader to a junior developer. I'm more than happy with the lifestyle change. I still find it funny, given my life quite literally revolved around ROI.
  - SturgeonsLaw 10y ago
SilasX 10y ago
Ditto! I went to a bootcamp after having worked in aerospace for 6+ years and, I had a mechanical engineering degree. I had programmed for a long time and had no problem with basic algorithm exercises (of the kind they spend the early part of these camps on). [1] The problem is, there was no easy way -- for someone like me wanting to go into software -- to (convincingly) say, "Hey, I can code and think abstractly. Give me a chance?" (If you're going to say, "just contribute to an open source project", there's actually a big gap between being able to code and being able to debug the zillion things that can go wrong in just setting up the builds for a given project. The Open Hatch project c. 2011 was specifically dedicated to helping people contribute, and yet following their instructions would still dump you in a an unnamed text editor with no way to exit.) [1] Frustratingly, the instructors were very unhelpful at the stuff I needed help with the most -- forming a mental model of how and why Rails works.
- morgante 10y ago
  > Hey, I can code and think abstractly. Give me a chance? That's more or less all most CS graduates can say though. I personally don't think anyone is qualified to be a professional developer until they've been programming for several years (especially coding in an unstructured way). I don't want to be combative, but what made you think you needed a bootcamp? I learned to program long before I went to college and was hired for programming projects long before I graduated.
  - SilasX 10y ago
    That's the point -- I didn't. I just needed it to convince someone to give me a chance. Employers would assume someone still in college for CS can program, and so look there. They don't automatically make that assumption for some rando with a different degree. To be sure, there were also probably some job-searching techniques that would have worked, but they're also hard to learn from reading pointers online if you don't automatically have the skill.
    - morgante 10y ago
      Did you actually try to interview before the bootcamp though? (Ideally after building a few portfolio projects.) I ask because I had no trouble getting jobs and freelance work without a degree or bootcamp. In fact, a bootcamp is usually a strong negative signal for me. I'd much rather hire a self-taught developer than a bootcamper.
nappybrainiac 10y ago
>I think one key aspect that is missing is that boot camp graduates aren't straight off the barista lineup. It seems like everyone is forgetting this. Since coding is becoming important for a tech driven World, no matter what our backgrounds are. We come in with whatever skills we've gathered from our personal journeys and then learn to code.

ammon 10y ago

Good point. About 50% of the bootcamp folks we work with have some sort of technical background before the bootcamp. The other 50% do not, however, which is really interesting! (I have no idea how this compares to the bootcamp population as a whole. I would guess that folks with a tech background are overrepresented in the group that passes our screening step)

lloyd-christmas 10y ago
Definitely. I had a wide range of classmates. We had several people that were project managers looking to gain some technical knowledge/communication skills. They had no intention of becoming programmers. A good chunk were designers who had html/css knowledge that were looking to expand their reach. A couple were a drain on my education. My greatest criticism of the programs is that it's an educational boom, so there isn't a stronger filtering process in place yet.
RegEx 10y ago
It depends on the school. Some bootcamps have very low acceptance rates to keep their placement numbers high - as that is their main marketing point. They bring in people who can demonstrate they already have the mindset but don't have the knowledge. Other bootcamps just need you to be able to use your computer and you're in.

Alex3917 10y ago

Right, all else being equal I would expect bootcamp grads to be significantly more valuable than CS majors, since presumably they're also experts in design, marketing, product management, or some other area. In addition to being able to contribute in a non-development capacity, even in terms of software being good at coding is probably at most 20% of what makes a good developer.

p4wnc6 10y ago
Being good at coding, in the sense of making robust software products that can stably support components of a business, is way more than 20% of the value of a developer. Additionally, in my experience, it's way easier to teach non-development skills to thoughtful programmers than it is to teach adequate programming skills to thoughtful non-programmers. Some of the best designers, managers, product analysts, business intelligence analysts, marketing strategists, and client engagement managers I've ever met all came from heavily theoretical CS backgrounds and spent a lot of their early careers mostly coding. Understanding the interrelationships between business components and business needs often has many similarities with designing quality software. And many of the pitfalls of software (e.g. monolithic classes, no separate interfaces, no solid tests) are directly analogous to non-software organizational problems as well. Plenty of people who gain technical credential through a bootcamp will go on to do a great job, and their other skills will be of tremendous value. But it just seems absurd to me to try to make some kind of rank ordering between bootcamp grads and CS degree holders. You're discounting just how highly effective CS degree holders are at translating their very general skill set into other domains of work. Generally speaking, they are very good at this -- so good that it's often threatening to non-technical people who would prefer if there was an easy stereotype suggesting that CS people should be siloed away from non-tech work.
- Swizec 10y ago
  > Generally speaking, they are very good at this -- so good that it's often threatening to non-technical people who would prefer if there was an easy stereotype suggesting that CS people should be siloed away from non-tech work. It's almost like having a degree in abstract thinking, designing systems, and discovering hidden requirements makes you good at designing systems to solve complex problems. Which is what most non-technical work is. Taking an ill-defined problem, and defining+solving it.

6stringmerc 10y ago

That's a path I've been considering as well - had a lot of CS background, hated running Unix compilers instead of working with HTML & C++ (already learned some in HS) - so ditched the major. Went with English, which, you know, is another language 'n all. Got into the working world, still have tech savvy... So to me I have to question the ROI of walking away from 5+ years of professional advancement and jump into software development again - by way of an in-person bootcamp. I'm not going back to a Uni or interested in online learning settings. However, I do recall the concepts and am certainly excited by the developments in languages and technology since watching some of the roots take hold. Being a "creative" person who can speak "engineering" is one of my strongest, and often the most unusual of my professional strengths.

infinite8s 10y ago
Have you heard of CAR (computer assisted reporting)? The field of data journalism requires people who are good at storytelling combined with technical savvy to be able to pull out stories from lots of (usually messy) data - http://www.poynter.org/2005/a-guide-to-computer-assisted-reporting/69334/ http://www.poynter.org/2005/a-guide-to-computer-assisted-rep...
- 6stringmerc 10y ago
  No I have not and I thank you very, very much for sharing that! I will most certainly look into it. I love the concept as you've described and if I've got an aptitude that sounds like the kind of stuff I'd wake up every day wanting to jump in and work on. Will check it out, thanks again!
lloyd-christmas 10y ago
I took a pretty significant pay cut switching from an equities trader to a junior developer. I'm more than happy with the lifestyle change. I still find it funny, given my life quite literally revolved around ROI.
- SturgeonsLaw 10y ago

SilasX 10y ago

Ditto! I went to a bootcamp after having worked in aerospace for 6+ years and, I had a mechanical engineering degree. I had programmed for a long time and had no problem with basic algorithm exercises (of the kind they spend the early part of these camps on). [1] The problem is, there was no easy way -- for someone like me wanting to go into software -- to (convincingly) say, "Hey, I can code and think abstractly. Give me a chance?" (If you're going to say, "just contribute to an open source project", there's actually a big gap between being able to code and being able to debug the zillion things that can go wrong in just setting up the builds for a given project. The Open Hatch project c. 2011 was specifically dedicated to helping people contribute, and yet following their instructions would still dump you in a an unnamed text editor with no way to exit.) [1] Frustratingly, the instructors were very unhelpful at the stuff I needed help with the most -- forming a mental model of how and why Rails works.

morgante 10y ago
> Hey, I can code and think abstractly. Give me a chance? That's more or less all most CS graduates can say though. I personally don't think anyone is qualified to be a professional developer until they've been programming for several years (especially coding in an unstructured way). I don't want to be combative, but what made you think you needed a bootcamp? I learned to program long before I went to college and was hired for programming projects long before I graduated.
- SilasX 10y ago
  That's the point -- I didn't. I just needed it to convince someone to give me a chance. Employers would assume someone still in college for CS can program, and so look there. They don't automatically make that assumption for some rando with a different degree. To be sure, there were also probably some job-searching techniques that would have worked, but they're also hard to learn from reading pointers online if you don't automatically have the skill.
  - morgante 10y ago
    Did you actually try to interview before the bootcamp though? (Ideally after building a few portfolio projects.) I ask because I had no trouble getting jobs and freelance work without a degree or bootcamp. In fact, a bootcamp is usually a strong negative signal for me. I'd much rather hire a self-taught developer than a bootcamper.

nappybrainiac 10y ago

>I think one key aspect that is missing is that boot camp graduates aren't straight off the barista lineup. It seems like everyone is forgetting this. Since coding is becoming important for a tech driven World, no matter what our backgrounds are. We come in with whatever skills we've gathered from our personal journeys and then learn to code.