10 ms·

Stockholm's 20-year waiting lists for rent-controlled housing

53 points by pmcpinto 10y ago

fennecfoxen 10y ago
Truly, central planning at its most refined.
- davidw 10y ago
  If you think that's central planning, you should see what zoning looks like in most US cities! Not that I think their answer is very good.
- legulere 10y ago
  The free market also doesn't lead to more getting build in locations where no space is left. Why are waiting times worse than extreme prices?
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > The free market also doesn't lead to more getting build in locations where no space is left. Because of the zoning laws - the opposite of a free market.
  - ChrisLomont 10y ago
    Because in the longer run extreme prices helps ensure new projects do get started when possible, and that current stock is maintained. Holding pricess below market rates helps ensure that over time current housing will be less maintained as money goes elsewhere, and as current housing can be converted into other more profitable land, it will be, thereby reducing housing overall. There are 100s of papers showing this, which is why rent controls being bad is one of the things most economists agree on.
    - eldavido 10y ago
      ...and it's happening. Quick googling can't track down a source, but I heard somewhere reliable that housing starts are at a 9-year high in California. Higher prices = more incentive to build. It's that simple.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    A waiting time of a month or two is a minor hassle, but a friend would have to be beyond awesome to let you sleep on his couch for 23 years.
  - MBlume 10y ago
    Where do you imagine the free market is operating?
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    > The free market also doesn't lead to more getting build in locations where no space is left. There's plenty of space left in places like New York or San Francisco, especially vertical space. Whether that's legally available to use (or impacts local infrastructure) is another matter, naturally.
tehabe 10y ago
It really seems that you either have extremely high rents which almost nobody can pay. Or low rents but no housing. I think neither is a good housing policy.
- raldi 10y ago
  Or, if you build lots of housing, then you can get moderate rents, no waiting lists, and no exclusivity.
  - IndianAstronaut 10y ago
    Amazing how policy makers fail to grasp basic supply and demand.
fapjacks 10y ago
My wife has been on the list since she was born 27 years ago. I don't particularly have a problem with the system. It's Stockholm. Either this way and reasonable rent, or rent would be totally fuckin' crazy.
- davidw 10y ago
  Being Europe, I'm sure it's fairly dense already, and likely there are decent sized areas that are historical and can't be touched, but perhaps with higher rents there would be more incentive to add to the housing supply?
  - mickronome 10y ago
    The city center is almost all historical buildings except for a few parts where those have been torn down a few decades ago - something that left a very bitter aftertaste, it created what csn only be described as open sores in the city core that hasn't really healed yet - although it has started to get there in the last few years. People in Stockholm generally don't vote for the people that want to build public/rent controlled housing, so there is no mystery there is a shortage. It has also been enormously lucrative to own your home the last 25-30 years or so as the interest has plummeted from 8% to 1.5-2%, so almost all rentals has been converted to bostadrätter (a kind of co-operative building society apartment) which you have to buy in to. To me it sounds like Spotify and many other tech startups are just being babies and not trying to solve their own problems - they want to be in Stockholm because it is an attractive place to live, but they don't want their employees to have to pay for the fact that the city is attractive ? Tough luck.
    - davidw 10y ago
      > but they don't want their employees to have to pay for the fact that the city is attractive ? Tough luck. I'd be kind of incensed if I were stuck paying black market rates, too.
    - gozur88 10y ago
      It seems like over time the city will become a retirement community as employers move out in search of areas that are easier for new hires to settle.
m00dy 10y ago
Well, I live in Stockholm and I will need a house soon
anonurban 10y ago
They should build some more apartments.
jkot 10y ago
While ago I wrote that Sweden is expensive country in decline (and was promptly down-voted to oblivion). Similar queues are in health care, schools and so on.
- Numberwang 10y ago
  This rent controlled queue has been like this for a long time and will continue to be like this. The problem is not new. There are no queues in health care to speak of and schools are good and available. As I always say to you and others on the other very well off depressed mid 30s persons who has yet to face hardship, try living in just about any other country for a year and compare.
  - jkot 10y ago
    Waiting times for rent controlled properties are getting longer. There are waiting times for medical procedures, those are also getting longer. http://www.thelocal.se/20150127/swedens-health-care-is-a-shame-to-the-country http://www.thelocal.se/20150127/swedens-health-care-is-a-sha... https://expathealth.org/healthcare-news/global-patient-wait-time-statistics/ https://expathealth.org/healthcare-news/global-patient-wait-... And please leave personal comments, you have no idea about my situation. I had job offers from Sweden, but with children its simply not affordable.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
rhblake 10y ago
Article seems to fail to mention that the majority of apartments in Stockholm (55% in 2014, more now) are in housing cooperatives ("bostadsrätt" -- in practice like a condo but not quite [Swedish compromise]). For a lot of people it's the normal - and indeed only - way to get an apartment in Stockholm. And it's actually not difficult to get one in the city if you're a Swede with a decent salary (meaning you can get a mortgage loan). (I.e., just about any IT salary.) "Like many foreigners, she’s reluctant to buy, following a price rise of 14% in the city in last year alone" -- another way of seeing it is of course that prices will probably continue to go up (they've certainly been doing that for the last decades, this is no temporary bubble), meaning buying your apartment can be a good investment. People having been worrying about rising prices since... a long time. If you were unlucky enough to buy your apartment in Stockholm city at the "peak" in 2007, right before the prices went down slightly during the financial meltdown of 2008, it'd still have increased in value with about 60% by now. Meaning if you sold it today, you would have essentially lived for free and quite possibly earned some money on top. Whereas had you rented, you would've paid say 864000 SEK (~92000 EUR) during those years for an 8000 SEK per month rental. Apartments in the city have historically not been a a risky investment; I know which one of renting vs. buying that I'd choose. Not saying that all is fine. There are many good reasons why one might not want to (or can't) buy an apartment, and in those cases the situation can be very tough indeed.

53 points by pmcpinto 10y ago

fennecfoxen 10y ago

Truly, central planning at its most refined.

davidw 10y ago
If you think that's central planning, you should see what zoning looks like in most US cities! Not that I think their answer is very good.
legulere 10y ago
The free market also doesn't lead to more getting build in locations where no space is left. Why are waiting times worse than extreme prices?
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > The free market also doesn't lead to more getting build in locations where no space is left. Because of the zoning laws - the opposite of a free market.
- ChrisLomont 10y ago
  Because in the longer run extreme prices helps ensure new projects do get started when possible, and that current stock is maintained. Holding pricess below market rates helps ensure that over time current housing will be less maintained as money goes elsewhere, and as current housing can be converted into other more profitable land, it will be, thereby reducing housing overall. There are 100s of papers showing this, which is why rent controls being bad is one of the things most economists agree on.
  - eldavido 10y ago
    ...and it's happening. Quick googling can't track down a source, but I heard somewhere reliable that housing starts are at a 9-year high in California. Higher prices = more incentive to build. It's that simple.
- gozur88 10y ago
  A waiting time of a month or two is a minor hassle, but a friend would have to be beyond awesome to let you sleep on his couch for 23 years.
- MBlume 10y ago
  Where do you imagine the free market is operating?
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  > The free market also doesn't lead to more getting build in locations where no space is left. There's plenty of space left in places like New York or San Francisco, especially vertical space. Whether that's legally available to use (or impacts local infrastructure) is another matter, naturally.

tehabe 10y ago

It really seems that you either have extremely high rents which almost nobody can pay. Or low rents but no housing. I think neither is a good housing policy.

raldi 10y ago
Or, if you build lots of housing, then you can get moderate rents, no waiting lists, and no exclusivity.
- IndianAstronaut 10y ago
  Amazing how policy makers fail to grasp basic supply and demand.

fapjacks 10y ago

My wife has been on the list since she was born 27 years ago. I don't particularly have a problem with the system. It's Stockholm. Either this way and reasonable rent, or rent would be totally fuckin' crazy.

davidw 10y ago
Being Europe, I'm sure it's fairly dense already, and likely there are decent sized areas that are historical and can't be touched, but perhaps with higher rents there would be more incentive to add to the housing supply?
- mickronome 10y ago
  The city center is almost all historical buildings except for a few parts where those have been torn down a few decades ago - something that left a very bitter aftertaste, it created what csn only be described as open sores in the city core that hasn't really healed yet - although it has started to get there in the last few years. People in Stockholm generally don't vote for the people that want to build public/rent controlled housing, so there is no mystery there is a shortage. It has also been enormously lucrative to own your home the last 25-30 years or so as the interest has plummeted from 8% to 1.5-2%, so almost all rentals has been converted to bostadrätter (a kind of co-operative building society apartment) which you have to buy in to. To me it sounds like Spotify and many other tech startups are just being babies and not trying to solve their own problems - they want to be in Stockholm because it is an attractive place to live, but they don't want their employees to have to pay for the fact that the city is attractive ? Tough luck.
  - davidw 10y ago
    > but they don't want their employees to have to pay for the fact that the city is attractive ? Tough luck. I'd be kind of incensed if I were stuck paying black market rates, too.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    It seems like over time the city will become a retirement community as employers move out in search of areas that are easier for new hires to settle.

m00dy 10y ago

Well, I live in Stockholm and I will need a house soon

anonurban 10y ago

They should build some more apartments.

jkot 10y ago

While ago I wrote that Sweden is expensive country in decline (and was promptly down-voted to oblivion). Similar queues are in health care, schools and so on.

Numberwang 10y ago
This rent controlled queue has been like this for a long time and will continue to be like this. The problem is not new. There are no queues in health care to speak of and schools are good and available. As I always say to you and others on the other very well off depressed mid 30s persons who has yet to face hardship, try living in just about any other country for a year and compare.
- jkot 10y ago
  Waiting times for rent controlled properties are getting longer. There are waiting times for medical procedures, those are also getting longer. http://www.thelocal.se/20150127/swedens-health-care-is-a-shame-to-the-country http://www.thelocal.se/20150127/swedens-health-care-is-a-sha... https://expathealth.org/healthcare-news/global-patient-wait-time-statistics/ https://expathealth.org/healthcare-news/global-patient-wait-... And please leave personal comments, you have no idea about my situation. I had job offers from Sweden, but with children its simply not affordable.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

rhblake 10y ago

Article seems to fail to mention that the majority of apartments in Stockholm (55% in 2014, more now) are in housing cooperatives ("bostadsrätt" -- in practice like a condo but not quite [Swedish compromise]). For a lot of people it's the normal - and indeed only - way to get an apartment in Stockholm. And it's actually not difficult to get one in the city if you're a Swede with a decent salary (meaning you can get a mortgage loan). (I.e., just about any IT salary.) "Like many foreigners, she’s reluctant to buy, following a price rise of 14% in the city in last year alone" -- another way of seeing it is of course that prices will probably continue to go up (they've certainly been doing that for the last decades, this is no temporary bubble), meaning buying your apartment can be a good investment. People having been worrying about rising prices since... a long time. If you were unlucky enough to buy your apartment in Stockholm city at the "peak" in 2007, right before the prices went down slightly during the financial meltdown of 2008, it'd still have increased in value with about 60% by now. Meaning if you sold it today, you would have essentially lived for free and quite possibly earned some money on top. Whereas had you rented, you would've paid say 864000 SEK (~92000 EUR) during those years for an 8000 SEK per month rental. Apartments in the city have historically not been a a risky investment; I know which one of renting vs. buying that I'd choose. Not saying that all is fine. There are many good reasons why one might not want to (or can't) buy an apartment, and in those cases the situation can be very tough indeed.