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I can't really speak for Zed's expertise and/or value to the programming community. From what I gather, a few of his projects are widely used (Mongrel comes to

by barbs 10y ago

I can't really speak for Zed's expertise and/or value to the programming community. From what I gather, a few of his projects are widely used (Mongrel comes to mind), and he seems to know his stuff pretty well. I also identify strongly with his Programming Motherfucker[0] rant. But man, the guy is insecure to the point of requiring therapy or something. He seems obsessed with his image and status, and the slightest criticism will cause him to lash out in an immature and ridiculous manner. Past rants have him making lewd comments about penis-sizes and challenging others to a physical fight[1]. It's a shame, because if he just relaxed a bit and took criticism gracefully, he'd probably find himself to be a bit more valuable to the community and employers, and would actually be a pretty decent dude. Instead, his writing seems to reek of a constant need to validate and defend himself. This is probably an unfair comparison, but I can't help but think of Terry Davis: a brilliant programmer hindered by mental issues. Schizophrenia is obviously not the same as insecurity, but I think the situation here is somewhat similar. [0] http://programming-motherfucker.com/ http://programming-motherfucker.com/ [1] http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/rails/is-a-ghetto http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/rails/is-a-ghetto

astrodust 10y ago
Being passionate about things and having opinions can mean that you eventually burn out on something and for the sake of your own mental health have to move on. I don't think Zed's doing anything wrong. He's saying what he thinks needs to be said, he's challenging the complacent, and he's not pulling any punches. If you don't like his attitude there's plenty of other people to listen to. I appreciate that he's out there making noise, getting people to re-think their assumptions about programming. If you live life by particular principles sometimes you have to take the hard road. You can't argue it hasn't been an interesting path.
- blub 10y ago
  Maybe being "passionate" is not a healthy state of mind. The community blabbers so much about passion which is nothing more than an almost uncontrolable emotional state. Screw passion, I'd rather have discipline and a healthy interest instead.
girvo 10y ago
In commenting on how Zed thinks too much about his self-image, you criticise how he comes across image-wise...
- rz2k 10y ago
  It's pretty difficult to sail upwind by heading directly into the wind. So, don't point into the wind if you want to get further upwind. I don't have an opinion on the actual topic, but whether someone's goal is others' perception of them, or they are just poorly optimizing it as a proxy for their sense of self worth, attacking every criticism head on could undermine how others perceive them, or it could waste their time and mental energy compared to other things they actually care about more than the measure of their achievements based on others perceptions.
  - bubuga 10y ago
    > I don't have an opinion on the actual topic, but whether someone's goal is others' perception of them Perhaps if you don't have an opinion on the actual topic, you should refrain from commenting on it the best thing you have to add are a series of ill-advised ad hominems.
bloat 10y ago
Despite having a veneer of a good comment, well written, sourced with links, and starting with some (faint) praise - it's actually just an ad hominem, and not appropriate here.
- hurbledr 10y ago
  Thanks for putting your finger on that.
- amoruso 10y ago
  It's not really ad hominem. More like constructive criticism of his rhetorical style.
  - bubuga 10y ago
    > It's not really ad hominem. More like constructive criticism of his rhetorical style. No, it's a blatant ad hominem. The guy invested his time and effort trying to improve the world by writing a technical book, which he then proceeded to give it away for free, and to this we see people like barbs replying with personal attacks accusing the author of being mentally disturbed to the point of requiring therapy. This is a personal attack at its worst. Perhaps the issue here is the C programming language and how teaching it can be improved, not what insults and personal attacks a random user online is able to throw at the author of a technical book. People have more to lean from writing on undefined behavior than puerile complains regarding comments on penis sizes and ironic accusations of immaturity.
    - barbs 10y ago
      The term "ad hominem" is typically used to describe the fallacy of attacking the person making an argument, rather than the argument itself. Sure, I'm discussing his character, but I'm not trying to win any argument here - he may be correct in what he's saying. > The guy invested his time and effort trying to improve the world by writing a technical book, which he then proceeded to give it away for free And I think this is certainly laudable, especially since they seem to have helped so many people. But he also called the Rails community "pricks, morons, assholes, and arrogant fucks who didn’t care about the art or the craft." and I think he should be held accountable for that, amongst other things. I wrote a comment about the author's behaviour in public forums and in blogs, something I think he should be held accountable for, and something which I believe hurts both him and the communities he participates in. I believe this is relevant, and I'm entitled to discuss this here.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
AYBABTME 10y ago
Casually blaming character differences on assumed mental issues is pretty crappy.
smitherfield 10y ago
Wow, [1] is pretty far out there, what with taking on the worldwide conspiracy to deny him recognition as History's Greatest Genius. Has he at least mellowed out since 2007?
- ktRolster 10y ago
  >Has he at least mellowed out since 2007? Yes
  - barbs 10y ago
    Not by much though. https://zedshaw.com/2015/06/01/dear-paul/ https://zedshaw.com/2015/06/01/dear-paul/
    - smitherfield 10y ago
      I know I really shouldn't be picking on the mentally ill, but the thought processes of extreme narcissists are honestly more alien to me than those of schizophrenics, who at least react in an understandable way to being told by God that what we call "reality" is actually an illusion. Whereas the guy we're discussing seems to actually think that Paul Graham, billionaire, wakes up every morning thinking "how, today, can I enable the vicious internet slander campaign against Zed Shaw? (I am so intimidated by his genius)." What would happen if I decided to pay you back for HN Paul? What would happen if I started honestly reviewing your startups’ products? If I just picked the worst ones, and then started tearing them in half? What would happen if I went on every HN hiring post and started posting dirt about the various shit HR practices your companies have? What if I took all this writing and got my friends you’ve fucked over to help me broadcast it? What if I started posting this writing as replies to many of your comments? What if I started offering to advise new coders, the millions I teach a year (yes, millions Paul) to avoid all of your company’s startups? What would happen if I just started putting anti-YC ads on my properties? What if I started telling everyone how you take 7% and don’t give startups any real guidance? What would happen if I started talking about the crazy bullshit I know has happened at YC startups I’ve worked for and others have told me about? Er… nothing?
mfukar 10y ago
How mature do you think it is that you admit not to know or understand something, and dismiss it as crazy?

by barbs 10y ago

astrodust 10y ago

Being passionate about things and having opinions can mean that you eventually burn out on something and for the sake of your own mental health have to move on. I don't think Zed's doing anything wrong. He's saying what he thinks needs to be said, he's challenging the complacent, and he's not pulling any punches. If you don't like his attitude there's plenty of other people to listen to. I appreciate that he's out there making noise, getting people to re-think their assumptions about programming. If you live life by particular principles sometimes you have to take the hard road. You can't argue it hasn't been an interesting path.

blub 10y ago
Maybe being "passionate" is not a healthy state of mind. The community blabbers so much about passion which is nothing more than an almost uncontrolable emotional state. Screw passion, I'd rather have discipline and a healthy interest instead.

girvo 10y ago

In commenting on how Zed thinks too much about his self-image, you criticise how he comes across image-wise...

rz2k 10y ago
It's pretty difficult to sail upwind by heading directly into the wind. So, don't point into the wind if you want to get further upwind. I don't have an opinion on the actual topic, but whether someone's goal is others' perception of them, or they are just poorly optimizing it as a proxy for their sense of self worth, attacking every criticism head on could undermine how others perceive them, or it could waste their time and mental energy compared to other things they actually care about more than the measure of their achievements based on others perceptions.
- bubuga 10y ago
  > I don't have an opinion on the actual topic, but whether someone's goal is others' perception of them Perhaps if you don't have an opinion on the actual topic, you should refrain from commenting on it the best thing you have to add are a series of ill-advised ad hominems.

bloat 10y ago

Despite having a veneer of a good comment, well written, sourced with links, and starting with some (faint) praise - it's actually just an ad hominem, and not appropriate here.

hurbledr 10y ago
Thanks for putting your finger on that.
amoruso 10y ago
It's not really ad hominem. More like constructive criticism of his rhetorical style.
- bubuga 10y ago
  > It's not really ad hominem. More like constructive criticism of his rhetorical style. No, it's a blatant ad hominem. The guy invested his time and effort trying to improve the world by writing a technical book, which he then proceeded to give it away for free, and to this we see people like barbs replying with personal attacks accusing the author of being mentally disturbed to the point of requiring therapy. This is a personal attack at its worst. Perhaps the issue here is the C programming language and how teaching it can be improved, not what insults and personal attacks a random user online is able to throw at the author of a technical book. People have more to lean from writing on undefined behavior than puerile complains regarding comments on penis sizes and ironic accusations of immaturity.
  - barbs 10y ago
    The term "ad hominem" is typically used to describe the fallacy of attacking the person making an argument, rather than the argument itself. Sure, I'm discussing his character, but I'm not trying to win any argument here - he may be correct in what he's saying. > The guy invested his time and effort trying to improve the world by writing a technical book, which he then proceeded to give it away for free And I think this is certainly laudable, especially since they seem to have helped so many people. But he also called the Rails community "pricks, morons, assholes, and arrogant fucks who didn’t care about the art or the craft." and I think he should be held accountable for that, amongst other things. I wrote a comment about the author's behaviour in public forums and in blogs, something I think he should be held accountable for, and something which I believe hurts both him and the communities he participates in. I believe this is relevant, and I'm entitled to discuss this here.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

AYBABTME 10y ago

Casually blaming character differences on assumed mental issues is pretty crappy.

smitherfield 10y ago

Wow, [1] is pretty far out there, what with taking on the worldwide conspiracy to deny him recognition as History's Greatest Genius. Has he at least mellowed out since 2007?

ktRolster 10y ago
>Has he at least mellowed out since 2007? Yes
- barbs 10y ago
  Not by much though. https://zedshaw.com/2015/06/01/dear-paul/ https://zedshaw.com/2015/06/01/dear-paul/
  - smitherfield 10y ago
    I know I really shouldn't be picking on the mentally ill, but the thought processes of extreme narcissists are honestly more alien to me than those of schizophrenics, who at least react in an understandable way to being told by God that what we call "reality" is actually an illusion. Whereas the guy we're discussing seems to actually think that Paul Graham, billionaire, wakes up every morning thinking "how, today, can I enable the vicious internet slander campaign against Zed Shaw? (I am so intimidated by his genius)." What would happen if I decided to pay you back for HN Paul? What would happen if I started honestly reviewing your startups’ products? If I just picked the worst ones, and then started tearing them in half? What would happen if I went on every HN hiring post and started posting dirt about the various shit HR practices your companies have? What if I took all this writing and got my friends you’ve fucked over to help me broadcast it? What if I started posting this writing as replies to many of your comments? What if I started offering to advise new coders, the millions I teach a year (yes, millions Paul) to avoid all of your company’s startups? What would happen if I just started putting anti-YC ads on my properties? What if I started telling everyone how you take 7% and don’t give startups any real guidance? What would happen if I started talking about the crazy bullshit I know has happened at YC startups I’ve worked for and others have told me about? Er… nothing?

mfukar 10y ago

How mature do you think it is that you admit not to know or understand something, and dismiss it as crazy?