6 ms·
What's wrong with this country, that nowadays people are so afraid of being disappeared that they run away to Russia, Ecuador, and Germany. We're doing somethin
by oneloop 10y ago
What's wrong with this country, that nowadays people are so afraid of being disappeared that they run away to Russia, Ecuador, and Germany. We're doing something wrong.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- rhino369 10y agoThis person had no reasonable reason to flee to Germany. Beyond paranoia and maybe a persecution complex. The FBI isn't going to "disappear" someone they subpoena.
- logn 10y agoYes unlikely this person would be disappeared. Tor Project distributes binaries, though. So it's not unreasonable to immediately hop on a flight to leave the country permanently. Once they hand you a national security letter (or use some other leverage), not sure what effective recourse you have. I think it would be like dodging service in a lawsuit (which can work).
- imglorp 10y agoI think this is the most likely answer. Once handed an NSL, you either have to quit the project or hurt people; or maybe even less than two options.
- ryanlol 10y agoWhat is a NSL supposed to achieve here? What non-content information could they have wanted from her?
- voxic11 10y agoIf she has commit rights to the tor project they could require her to submit a patch which could be used to reviel metadata about tor users.
- nickpsecurity 10y agoWhat you said. The ECI leaks say they use them gor SIGINT-enabling. In Lavabit, the court order was to compromise all the keys then lie to users that it never happened.
- throwaway76543 10y agoOr ignore the NSL, talk to the press about it openly, and become the case which invalidates them. I'd do it.
- npizzolato 10y agoThat's really easy to say behind a throwaway account on the internet. It's a much harder choice when it's your life and freedom on the line, and I don't know if anyone can truly say it for sure until they're in that position.
- throwaway76543 10y agoThis is an absolutely fair observation.
- cm3 10y agoI seriously don't understand this NSL business. There's this secret institution misusing the name court which kinda doesn't exist but makes rulings and if you're on the naughty list of the powers to be, you might get an invitation. To me this all sounds like dark ages of inquisition. I thought we were over that with Enlightenment and such and there were no witch burnings anymore. The painful effect is that many people self-censor and act like they're in China or DDR (communist Germany). Better not get on their radar.
- rhino369 10y agoNSL only cover "non-content information" (metadata) and can't force you to do something like backdoor TOR. And you can fight them in Federal Court. You can't NSL "how does TOR work?" or "give me the encryption keys to X." What an NSL can do is say "give me a list of emails sent by XYZ@yourdomain.com" and you aren't allowed to tell anyone.
- parenthephobia 10y agoHow do you know? What verifiable evidence do you have that no NSLs have been issued demanding encryption keys, or that all such NSLs have been successfully challenged in court?
- ryanlol 10y agoWhat verifiable evidence do we have that no NSLs have been issued demanding that someone dance around naked on the FBIs parking lot? Probably the fact that that simply isn't what NSLs are for. Encryption keys are most definitely "content".
- nickpsecurity 10y agoIt's irrelevant. The ECI leaks had one statement that said that the FBI "compels" US companies to assist in "SIGINT-enabling" (backdoors or taps). We should assume they can secretly order such things given it was in the most secretive leaks. For foreign companies, they sent the black bag operators of CIA or ISA to get job done. ISA is an interesting outfit to have coming after you or your data. So, she could legally be compelled to do something disuptive to catch criminals like Feds do all the time in physical spaces (esp hotels). Thing is, leaving to avoid that might put her at risk of what's used outside jurisdiction. Fleeing was a bad move.
- rhino369 10y agoThat is what is legal. So sure, if the FBI was going to completely violate the law they can send something that looks like an NSL. But they could do that even if NSL isn't legal.
- cm3 10y agoAre you serious? Have you read what the FBI has done so far? It's one thing to get subpoenaed by a public servant of a real court, but it's reasonable to be afraid if FBI agents act like they want to serve her papers in person by a fake court named FISA and either shut her up or force into cooperation in something she wouldn't do if given the option.
- rhino369 10y agoFISA is a real court but this information wouldn't be under FISA court jurisdiction.
- cm3 10y agoIf it's secret, it's not a real court. Even the founding fathers of the USA would disagree and they're kinda still fresh history-wise in terms of justice systems around the world.
- dragonwriter 10y ago> FISA is a real court No, its not. FISA (the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) is a real law. FISA creates two courts, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review.
- _george 10y agoI believe she was planning the move well in advance of this story.
- nickpsecurity 10y agoWhat's wrong with her you mean? The type of people affected by rendition or hit teams are a rare breed. Ultra-rare. The typical method is arresting, optionally a high bail, plea offer, and then rough time in court. If convicted, you're in a prison where you usually get to at least talk to outsiders and maybe get out early for good behavior. Quite the opposite of people disappearing you. Now that she's in Europe, the CIA's jurisdiction, she's at greater risk of this happening in form of thug violence against Americans, tourists, whatevet. I'm guessing that's uncommon to rare step, too, so dont know risk level
- emp_zealoth 10y agoYou mean you actually believe that an organisation with no transparency and no accountability that routinely slaughters civilians in double digits, is engaged in illegal torture etc etc will staunchly follow an arbitrary jurisdiction? In jail she might die on accident just because your jails murder people for fun. Or she might get murdered purposefully - for eg deny medical care... Written on a broken phone, sorry for any typos
- dang 10y agoThe comment you're replying to was bad enough, but turning up the rhetorical indignation like this takes the thread in exactly the wrong direction. HN needs fewer grandiose denunciations and generic tangents, and more concrete and thoughtful discourse.
- nickpsecurity 10y agoHow so?
- nickpsecurity 10y agoI mean the ECI leaks state a clear division of labor on SIGINT issues. If it's domestic, the FBI handle it as we've seen in leaks and court cases. If it's foreign, then the CIA or other operators handle it. Their methods are typically bribery, extortion, or B&E's. Targets of high interest are sometimes kidnapped under rendition program or executed via drone program. Both of the latter are active in Germany. BND also cooperates strongly with NSA and CIA. I doubt she's at risk of serious stuff but she's outside FBI's more limited scope now. Instead, if they escalate, local authorities will grab and extradite her with assistance if needed from CIA or NSA. Probably none will be needed past local cops if she thinks presence in Germany is safe from US authorities.