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When I used to be a Netflix customer it was more the variability of my connection that was an issue and not its "speed" at a given optimal time. Usually I coul

by gdulli 10y ago

When I used to be a Netflix customer it was more the variability of my connection that was an issue and not its "speed" at a given optimal time. Usually I could begin a stream without problems. But often while streaming (often enough for me to realize streaming was a bad experience) the bitrate dynamically dropped way down to a terrible quality in response to what I imagine were poor network conditions. Netflix no doubt sees this dynamic quality adjustment as a feature, and preferable to buffering, but I chose an HD stream and I'd rather even see an SD quality video that I could be sure would stay that quality than switching between HD and very low bitrate, fuzzy, artifacty video. I don't blame Netflix for the quality of my connection, but streaming is just not as reliable as cable and it's not one of those Moore's Law type things where throwing more processing power or memory fixes the network issues.

Aelinsaar 10y ago
More of an issue of needing to throw ISP execs into a pit so that the infrastructure can move into this century.
drewg123 10y ago
This highlights the conflict of interest that cable ISPs have. If they provide you good internet service, by either allowing embedded Netflix (and Google, Amazon, etc) cache appliances into their network, or had add more downstream bandwidth, then you might have cut the cord. However, by giving you crappy internet service, they have retained you as a cable customer. Lovely.
- gdulli 10y ago
  My service is fine for all other use cases but remote HD video, with its need for constant high bandwidth, is always going to be a fundamentally more difficult problem to solve than local digital video, traditional cable-delivered video, or regular downloads that can tolerate variance in transfer rate. It doesn't feel like it takes a conspiracy to explain that. When cable companies wanted to be our email or news/content portals I never had any issues using competing services on cable internet. I was never going to cut the cord. I like having many channels and the serendipity of a wide variety of programming that's on "now" to choose from. There are shows/movies I never would have chosen myself but I stumbled onto them because they were "on" and they became favorites. With a DVR I can also time-shift so I'm not tied to watching something on the broadcasters' schedule when I don't want to. I tried Netflix to augment this with what I thought would be a big influx of other programming but it wasn't only the streaming experience I didn't like, I was unimpressed with the selection of the Netflix library. If they do another season of Arrested Development, I'll subscribe for a few months to support that.
trunnell 10y ago
Hi, I work on the streaming algorithms at Netflix. You are correct that throughput variability matters a lot as well. The trouble is that the variability is somewhat unpredictable (at least, with our methods so far). And you're also right that we view the "dynamic quality adjustment" as a feature! Without it, we wouldn't be able to serve both 0.5Mbps connections and 50Mbps connections seamlessly. But we don't like those sudden quality drops, either. We track how often that occurs, as well as how often rebuffers occur, and we work to eliminate both. We use large scale A/B testing to measure improvements in the field. If it's been a while since you tried it, I humbly suggest you consider trying it again. We've made a lot of progress. If anyone is interested in working on this problem, we're currently hiring engineers on the Streaming Algorithms team with a focus on mobile. https://jobs.netflix.com/jobs/860465 https://jobs.netflix.com/jobs/860465
- IgorPartola 10y ago
  Since I have you here, can I ask a random question? My kids love Puffin Rock, and it's the only show that I would have issues streaming. It would start out fine, but a few minutes into it start buffering and would take minutes; resume for a bit, then do the same thing. When this happened I could switch to any other Netflix show or movie and it worked perfectly fine. When the kids whined, I'd switch back to Puffin Rock and the problem would persist. So my question is: is it possible that either some shows are encoded differently so my player had trouble with it? Or is it that specific content was being messed with by my ISP? The players in question were Roku 2 and 3, and my ISP is Charter (business plan). I haven't tried this in a few months since it got really annoying, but can try again if it helps.
  - RKoutnik 10y ago
    Another Netflix engineer here - have you tried with something not popular? It may be that the other shows you checked were cached via OpenConnect but Puffin Rock wasn't. My email is my username at netflix.com. If you can send me the email address connected to your account, I can see that your problem gets to the right people. (Disclaimer: I'm not on the OC or related teams directly)
r00fus 10y ago
It is a feature. When my kids (or parents) are watching and the stream suffers, I'd rather it step down the bitrate momentarily than cut the stream or pause to buffer. Remember realnetworks and the constant "buffering.. buffering..". I'm glad to leave that in the past.

by gdulli 10y ago

Aelinsaar 10y ago

More of an issue of needing to throw ISP execs into a pit so that the infrastructure can move into this century.

drewg123 10y ago

This highlights the conflict of interest that cable ISPs have. If they provide you good internet service, by either allowing embedded Netflix (and Google, Amazon, etc) cache appliances into their network, or had add more downstream bandwidth, then you might have cut the cord. However, by giving you crappy internet service, they have retained you as a cable customer. Lovely.

gdulli 10y ago
My service is fine for all other use cases but remote HD video, with its need for constant high bandwidth, is always going to be a fundamentally more difficult problem to solve than local digital video, traditional cable-delivered video, or regular downloads that can tolerate variance in transfer rate. It doesn't feel like it takes a conspiracy to explain that. When cable companies wanted to be our email or news/content portals I never had any issues using competing services on cable internet. I was never going to cut the cord. I like having many channels and the serendipity of a wide variety of programming that's on "now" to choose from. There are shows/movies I never would have chosen myself but I stumbled onto them because they were "on" and they became favorites. With a DVR I can also time-shift so I'm not tied to watching something on the broadcasters' schedule when I don't want to. I tried Netflix to augment this with what I thought would be a big influx of other programming but it wasn't only the streaming experience I didn't like, I was unimpressed with the selection of the Netflix library. If they do another season of Arrested Development, I'll subscribe for a few months to support that.

trunnell 10y ago

Hi, I work on the streaming algorithms at Netflix. You are correct that throughput variability matters a lot as well. The trouble is that the variability is somewhat unpredictable (at least, with our methods so far). And you're also right that we view the "dynamic quality adjustment" as a feature! Without it, we wouldn't be able to serve both 0.5Mbps connections and 50Mbps connections seamlessly. But we don't like those sudden quality drops, either. We track how often that occurs, as well as how often rebuffers occur, and we work to eliminate both. We use large scale A/B testing to measure improvements in the field. If it's been a while since you tried it, I humbly suggest you consider trying it again. We've made a lot of progress. If anyone is interested in working on this problem, we're currently hiring engineers on the Streaming Algorithms team with a focus on mobile. https://jobs.netflix.com/jobs/860465 https://jobs.netflix.com/jobs/860465

IgorPartola 10y ago
Since I have you here, can I ask a random question? My kids love Puffin Rock, and it's the only show that I would have issues streaming. It would start out fine, but a few minutes into it start buffering and would take minutes; resume for a bit, then do the same thing. When this happened I could switch to any other Netflix show or movie and it worked perfectly fine. When the kids whined, I'd switch back to Puffin Rock and the problem would persist. So my question is: is it possible that either some shows are encoded differently so my player had trouble with it? Or is it that specific content was being messed with by my ISP? The players in question were Roku 2 and 3, and my ISP is Charter (business plan). I haven't tried this in a few months since it got really annoying, but can try again if it helps.
- RKoutnik 10y ago
  Another Netflix engineer here - have you tried with something not popular? It may be that the other shows you checked were cached via OpenConnect but Puffin Rock wasn't. My email is my username at netflix.com. If you can send me the email address connected to your account, I can see that your problem gets to the right people. (Disclaimer: I'm not on the OC or related teams directly)

r00fus 10y ago

It is a feature. When my kids (or parents) are watching and the stream suffers, I'd rather it step down the bitrate momentarily than cut the stream or pause to buffer. Remember realnetworks and the constant "buffering.. buffering..". I'm glad to leave that in the past.