5 ms·

Stanza: a new optionally-typed general-purpose programming language

44 points by trishume 10y ago

uptownfunk 10y ago
Post from the original author of the language- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11717561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11717561
Grishnakh 10y ago
How many more new languages do we need? This is getting ridiculous. What does this thing do that Python doesn't do?
- bksjdf 10y ago
  'How many more new tools do we need? This is getting ridiculous. What does an excavator do that a wooden shovel doesn't do?' Also, python is a steaming pile of crap.
- DigitalJack 10y ago
  How many pointless comments do we need? This is getting ridiculous. What does your comment add to the conversation that a million other whiners don't do?
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
    It points out that we don't need more and more computer languages that no one uses. If you can come up with a language that really makes new contributions or really works better than the existing ones, great, but instead it seems we just have a bunch of me-too languages doing almost the same thing. Languages aren't useful unless there's a critical mass of people developing them, making libraries for them, making good compilers for them, and providing mindshare for them, so that there's enough people competent in them to use them. This is why languages like C and C++ are still used even though there are many valid criticisms of them and supposedly superior alternatives have been developed: the alternatives just haven't been good enough, in many/most cases, to justify switching. C++ may have its warts, for instance, but with all the libraries that exist for it and all the existing code and all the workers familiar with it, it usually makes sense to stick with it rather than switch to something like D or Rust or Swift or Go unless you have a really good reason (like you're developing on iOS where Swift is really well-supported). These days, Python is the de-facto standard for general-purpose type-optional programming, and has a huge amount of libraries and mindshare, and is growing. So why do we need a clone?
    - evanpw 10y ago
      > Python is the de-facto standard for general-purpose type-optional programming Type hints were added to Python only in the most recent version (somewhat controversially), and the interpreter only knows about the syntax; there are no semantics defined. (You have to run an external program if you want to check the types). Why would you say Python is the standard for optional typing?
    - pkroll 10y ago
      The alternatives to C/C++ are so popular that most programming is not done in C/C++ anymore, so your premise seems off. The alternatives have done stunningly well. Rarely, RARELY is someone going to make a language that's radically better than what's currently available. But every new language is a chance to step in the right direction, or confirm that nope, no one wants something like this. We need MORE languages. Hundreds, a thousand more. Mostly they won't be used, but sometimes things will move forward.
- krapp 10y ago
  We need as many languages as we want to make, otherwise we would have stopped at C.
- dang 10y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive dismissals to Hacker News, especially in response to new work. If you have a substantive criticism, fine—please make it respectfully. If you don't, then don't post in these threads. On HN, no one need ever apologize for creating something new, regardless of whether someone else thinks "this thing" is "needed". Most new creations won't end up becoming a huge deal, but that's no reason to trample on them. Indiscriminate trampling just ensures we end up with (a) an ugly, damaged garden, and (b) a culture of the status quo. It's also a vulgar behavior that violates the civility requirements of HN. No one, least of all the trampling internet commentariat, knows how to distinguish what will prove important from what will not prove important. Therefore we should receive new things with respect for the creative spirit, even if we don't personally intend to use them.
grifter2000 10y ago
seems like another useless dingleberry plopped down from the arse of academic CS
- DigitalJack 10y ago
  You know, people who make these projects read HN. It really hurts to read someone slam your work, even when (or perhaps particularly when) it's a hobby.
  - kazinator 10y ago
    No, actually it doesn't. Only if you have a thin skin. If you have a thin skin, keep your ideas to yourself. That said, it is not HN-ly (pronounced "heavenly") conduct. :)
    - andrewflnr 10y ago
      You're basically saying that people don't have a right to have their work appreciated, and the rest of us should never get a chance to see it, no matter how great it is, unless the creator also has the fairly unrelated skill of withstanding assholes. There's no good reason it has to be this way. I understand that there's a difference between the current reality and what should be, but if someone is pushing the boundary towards a more ideal world, we should support them, not make excuses for the status quo.
    - mindcrime 10y ago
      If you have a thin skin, keep your ideas to yourself. Why? Is it so much to ask for people who have nothing constructive to add, to just sit down and STFU? I mean, nobody is saying that criticism shouldn't be aired... but there's criticism and there's pointless flaming which serves no purpose other than to try and tear people down. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody has nothing to offer besides the latter, they are the ones who should keep their ideas to themselves. After all, it's not like airing a comment like "seems like another useless dingleberry plopped down from the arse of academic CS" is adding any value to the world or making anything better for anybody.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dang 10y ago
We moved most of the comments from this thread to the creator's Show HN, which was posted a few days ago and didn't get much attention: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11717561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11717561. We'll roll back the clock on that post so it gets to the same place on the front page that this one was.
boardwaalk 10y ago
I like what I'm seeing so far. The mix of ease of prototyping (e.g. not fighting the type system if you don't want to) and powerful constructs from functional programming land (map and friends, currying) and powerful function overloading is nice. And the syntax is concise yet readable. One comment on the website: The only font-family specified for code is Menlo so I see an ugly variable width font on my PC :-(.
uptownfunk 10y ago
Can we port numpy/sklearn to this?

44 points by trishume 10y ago

Post from the original author of the language- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11717561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11717561

Grishnakh 10y ago

How many more new languages do we need? This is getting ridiculous. What does this thing do that Python doesn't do?

bksjdf 10y ago
'How many more new tools do we need? This is getting ridiculous. What does an excavator do that a wooden shovel doesn't do?' Also, python is a steaming pile of crap.
DigitalJack 10y ago
How many pointless comments do we need? This is getting ridiculous. What does your comment add to the conversation that a million other whiners don't do?
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  It points out that we don't need more and more computer languages that no one uses. If you can come up with a language that really makes new contributions or really works better than the existing ones, great, but instead it seems we just have a bunch of me-too languages doing almost the same thing. Languages aren't useful unless there's a critical mass of people developing them, making libraries for them, making good compilers for them, and providing mindshare for them, so that there's enough people competent in them to use them. This is why languages like C and C++ are still used even though there are many valid criticisms of them and supposedly superior alternatives have been developed: the alternatives just haven't been good enough, in many/most cases, to justify switching. C++ may have its warts, for instance, but with all the libraries that exist for it and all the existing code and all the workers familiar with it, it usually makes sense to stick with it rather than switch to something like D or Rust or Swift or Go unless you have a really good reason (like you're developing on iOS where Swift is really well-supported). These days, Python is the de-facto standard for general-purpose type-optional programming, and has a huge amount of libraries and mindshare, and is growing. So why do we need a clone?
  - evanpw 10y ago
    > Python is the de-facto standard for general-purpose type-optional programming Type hints were added to Python only in the most recent version (somewhat controversially), and the interpreter only knows about the syntax; there are no semantics defined. (You have to run an external program if you want to check the types). Why would you say Python is the standard for optional typing?
  - pkroll 10y ago
    The alternatives to C/C++ are so popular that most programming is not done in C/C++ anymore, so your premise seems off. The alternatives have done stunningly well. Rarely, RARELY is someone going to make a language that's radically better than what's currently available. But every new language is a chance to step in the right direction, or confirm that nope, no one wants something like this. We need MORE languages. Hundreds, a thousand more. Mostly they won't be used, but sometimes things will move forward.
krapp 10y ago
We need as many languages as we want to make, otherwise we would have stopped at C.
dang 10y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive dismissals to Hacker News, especially in response to new work. If you have a substantive criticism, fine—please make it respectfully. If you don't, then don't post in these threads. On HN, no one need ever apologize for creating something new, regardless of whether someone else thinks "this thing" is "needed". Most new creations won't end up becoming a huge deal, but that's no reason to trample on them. Indiscriminate trampling just ensures we end up with (a) an ugly, damaged garden, and (b) a culture of the status quo. It's also a vulgar behavior that violates the civility requirements of HN. No one, least of all the trampling internet commentariat, knows how to distinguish what will prove important from what will not prove important. Therefore we should receive new things with respect for the creative spirit, even if we don't personally intend to use them.

grifter2000 10y ago

seems like another useless dingleberry plopped down from the arse of academic CS

DigitalJack 10y ago
You know, people who make these projects read HN. It really hurts to read someone slam your work, even when (or perhaps particularly when) it's a hobby.
- kazinator 10y ago
  No, actually it doesn't. Only if you have a thin skin. If you have a thin skin, keep your ideas to yourself. That said, it is not HN-ly (pronounced "heavenly") conduct. :)
  - andrewflnr 10y ago
    You're basically saying that people don't have a right to have their work appreciated, and the rest of us should never get a chance to see it, no matter how great it is, unless the creator also has the fairly unrelated skill of withstanding assholes. There's no good reason it has to be this way. I understand that there's a difference between the current reality and what should be, but if someone is pushing the boundary towards a more ideal world, we should support them, not make excuses for the status quo.
  - mindcrime 10y ago
    If you have a thin skin, keep your ideas to yourself. Why? Is it so much to ask for people who have nothing constructive to add, to just sit down and STFU? I mean, nobody is saying that criticism shouldn't be aired... but there's criticism and there's pointless flaming which serves no purpose other than to try and tear people down. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody has nothing to offer besides the latter, they are the ones who should keep their ideas to themselves. After all, it's not like airing a comment like "seems like another useless dingleberry plopped down from the arse of academic CS" is adding any value to the world or making anything better for anybody.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

dang 10y ago

We moved most of the comments from this thread to the creator's Show HN, which was posted a few days ago and didn't get much attention: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11717561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11717561. We'll roll back the clock on that post so it gets to the same place on the front page that this one was.

boardwaalk 10y ago

I like what I'm seeing so far. The mix of ease of prototyping (e.g. not fighting the type system if you don't want to) and powerful constructs from functional programming land (map and friends, currying) and powerful function overloading is nice. And the syntax is concise yet readable. One comment on the website: The only font-family specified for code is Menlo so I see an ugly variable width font on my PC :-(.

uptownfunk 10y ago

Can we port numpy/sklearn to this?