5 ms·

There's a lot in what you say about comment voting. It used to be useful, or at least harmless. But now HN has grown so large it has become an injection of du

by pg 17y ago

There's a lot in what you say about comment voting. It used to be useful, or at least harmless. But now HN has grown so large it has become an injection of dumbness (and often ill will) into the conversation. I plan to try to some design changes to deal with this when I have time, maybe in April. I'll probably get rid of the display of point numbers on comments.

DanielBMarkham 17y ago
How about separating the voting from the sorting? People like voting. They like scoring systems. As much as folks might say "who cares?" study after study has shown that if you provide a numerical feedback/points system, it's going to motivate users. So I'd leave the points in. There is a second question: what should be at the top of my display? This doesn't have to be tied so closely to the scoring. It's probably much more related to the type of material as well as the overall voting activity. I think you've tightly linked these two concepts, voting and sorting -- lots of other boards do the same thing -- and the linkage is what is causing the mismatch. With the app I'm currently writing, sorting happens based on a Bayesian system of matching up tags from what you've liked in the past. The tag-for-sort seems to work a lot better than the vote-for-sort.
lotharbot 17y ago
I find comment voting tremendously useful: - It gives me direct feedback on whether other users found my comments insightful. I find it encouraging when I put some effort into explaining something and I get a bunch of points for it. I'd much rather get upvotes than a bunch of meaningless replies like "I agree", "good post", or "x2". (Getting substantive replies is even better, but not always warranted.) - It gives me an easy way to find comments others have found insightful, even if they're nested deep in a thread where they don't get auto-sorted to the top. I was actually planning to ask for highlighting on highly-rated comments -- something unobtrusive like bolding the number. - It gives me a way to reward/encourage those whose comments I found educational or insightful. Downvoting can also provide an injection of dumbness or ill will into a conversation. But I would take the dumbness of downvotes over the dumbness of people saying "you're an idiot" any day.
- ericd 17y ago
  And with voting, I don't have to say "I second this" to everything I strongly agree with or that I find very insightful. But in case PG doesn't look at scores, I second this.
  - KirinDave 17y ago
    You don't have to say "I second this," even without voting. If someone says something you like and agree with: congratulations, you have found a kindred soul, enjoy this moment of warmth in an otherwise dark and unforgiving universe. If someone says something you dislike or disagree with: if it's not worth posting a rationally and carefully written rebuttal to the post in question then it's probably not worth your time or effort, the internet is full of people who are wrong. In general that tiny number next to posts is more an indication of things other than the quality of the ideas expressed in posts. In fact, I'd say they're not well coupled. Usually, it's more correlated with political alignments or writing quality.
    - ericd 17y ago
      Well, the idea of HN's scoring is to bring the most insightful comments to the top while burying the noise, correct? I think it generally does a decent job of this, though the scoring seems to be somewhat noisier than it used to be.
    - ericd 17y ago
      Well, the idea of HN's scoring is to bring the most insightful comments to the top while burying the noise, correct? I think it generally does a decent job of this, though the scoring seems to be somewhat noisier than it used to be.
gojomo 17y ago
Separate 'valuable/not-valuable' voting from 'agree/disagree'. It is the disagree-downvotes, which also carry with them a slight sting of censure because they share the same gesture, that inject the bad feelings.
kgermino 17y ago
I think that comment voting is nice, especially if people actually vote on quality, rather than agreement. However if its becoming a problem it may be better to only use comment votes for ranking comments and not have them count toward karma.

by pg 17y ago

DanielBMarkham 17y ago

How about separating the voting from the sorting? People like voting. They like scoring systems. As much as folks might say "who cares?" study after study has shown that if you provide a numerical feedback/points system, it's going to motivate users. So I'd leave the points in. There is a second question: what should be at the top of my display? This doesn't have to be tied so closely to the scoring. It's probably much more related to the type of material as well as the overall voting activity. I think you've tightly linked these two concepts, voting and sorting -- lots of other boards do the same thing -- and the linkage is what is causing the mismatch. With the app I'm currently writing, sorting happens based on a Bayesian system of matching up tags from what you've liked in the past. The tag-for-sort seems to work a lot better than the vote-for-sort.

lotharbot 17y ago

I find comment voting tremendously useful: - It gives me direct feedback on whether other users found my comments insightful. I find it encouraging when I put some effort into explaining something and I get a bunch of points for it. I'd much rather get upvotes than a bunch of meaningless replies like "I agree", "good post", or "x2". (Getting substantive replies is even better, but not always warranted.) - It gives me an easy way to find comments others have found insightful, even if they're nested deep in a thread where they don't get auto-sorted to the top. I was actually planning to ask for highlighting on highly-rated comments -- something unobtrusive like bolding the number. - It gives me a way to reward/encourage those whose comments I found educational or insightful. Downvoting can also provide an injection of dumbness or ill will into a conversation. But I would take the dumbness of downvotes over the dumbness of people saying "you're an idiot" any day.

ericd 17y ago
And with voting, I don't have to say "I second this" to everything I strongly agree with or that I find very insightful. But in case PG doesn't look at scores, I second this.
- KirinDave 17y ago
  You don't have to say "I second this," even without voting. If someone says something you like and agree with: congratulations, you have found a kindred soul, enjoy this moment of warmth in an otherwise dark and unforgiving universe. If someone says something you dislike or disagree with: if it's not worth posting a rationally and carefully written rebuttal to the post in question then it's probably not worth your time or effort, the internet is full of people who are wrong. In general that tiny number next to posts is more an indication of things other than the quality of the ideas expressed in posts. In fact, I'd say they're not well coupled. Usually, it's more correlated with political alignments or writing quality.
  - ericd 17y ago
    Well, the idea of HN's scoring is to bring the most insightful comments to the top while burying the noise, correct? I think it generally does a decent job of this, though the scoring seems to be somewhat noisier than it used to be.
  - ericd 17y ago
    Well, the idea of HN's scoring is to bring the most insightful comments to the top while burying the noise, correct? I think it generally does a decent job of this, though the scoring seems to be somewhat noisier than it used to be.

gojomo 17y ago

Separate 'valuable/not-valuable' voting from 'agree/disagree'. It is the disagree-downvotes, which also carry with them a slight sting of censure because they share the same gesture, that inject the bad feelings.

kgermino 17y ago

I think that comment voting is nice, especially if people actually vote on quality, rather than agreement. However if its becoming a problem it may be better to only use comment votes for ranking comments and not have them count toward karma.