6 ms·

Austin’s Regulations for Kid Lemonade Stands

41 points by luu 10y ago

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
I have a better idea: give the kids an option to print out a piece of paper formatted by the local government that reads: "The city of Austin seeks to strike a balance between encouragement of entrepreneurship and safety to the consumer. This establishment is not compliant with restaurant-grade cleanliness standards. By posting this certificate, the vendor acknowledges some basic restrictions (no handling of raw meat etc), and the customer accepts the risk of consuming at an unregulated establishment. Any blatant violations to the health code should be reported to (blah blah blah)." One printer, one piece of paper, some tape. We can do better.
hasenj 10y ago
I bet no one would bother following these regulations.
- scarecrowbob 10y ago
  In Texas is that this is pretty common, even for larger laws that impact adults and enterprises. But then we end up with the police looking the other way on DWIs or pot possession... for "good people".
  - smhenderson 10y ago
    DWIs or pot possession You make is sound as if you think they are equally bad. Can't say I agree. I'd much rather have a friend or loved one walking around with marijuana in their possession than have them drinking and driving. Actually I could have just stopped at drinking.
    - scarecrowbob 10y ago
      That wasn't my intent. I personally don't care if folks do either (if you hit someone while drunk, I think it's a much worse offense, but if you don't hit folks, then I don't think that the current laws are relaxed enough and yeesh, I think pot should be on sale in HEB). My point is that I know a lot of old white dudes who smoke pot and who will never go to jail, whereas I have lots of young, poor, brown friends who are constantly harassed. It's a lot easier to fight bad laws if they are applied even to the privileged.
      - smhenderson 10y ago
        Oh, when then we are in total agreement. Rereading your comment in context I see how I misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying...
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  I think what's more important is will police enforce those regulations? In my experience, APD is pretty tough on food distribution; even giving away meals to homeless folks is regulated pretty tightly, and in ways that are maybe counter-productive to public welfare.
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    Ugh, when I was a teen I worked as a produce clerk in an ailing grocery chain that had just been bought out by a regional competitor. One of the biggest changes was that company policy forbade donations of old produce or meats, but old baked goods were ok. Basically, a bunch of rich shareholders figured it would be all-in-all better to insulate their assets from lawsuits instead of helping feed the poor and hungry. Threw away a lot of good food that year...
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      I thought usual practice in such cases was to say "sorry, rules say we can't give this away, we have to throw it in the blue dumpster out back at 11pm on thursday".
      - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
        I wish they were that cool about it. Happy ending: a few investors bought out some of the old stores and reinvigorated the old brand, and now things are...well it's no Wegmans, but the store is certainly better than when I was there. Don't know about disposal rules though...
6stringmerc 10y ago
There's plenty of unincorporated area around Austin that motivated parents, unwilling to comply with long-standing catch-all regulations, can map out as a potential market. Then they can pack up the car, drive the kids out, set up shop, and perform their business venture without the pesky administrative oversight and potential fiscal penalties that go along with it. Granted, I don't think cows buy a lot of lemonade, but that's a different issue.
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  Cows don't naturally eat a lot of corn or soy, either, but capitalism has solved that problem.
  - B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
    "You won't believe this one drink that turns any cow into Kobe beef."
    - gonzo 10y ago
      Japan hates them
wyager 10y ago
Soon we'll hear about how Austin is offering tax incentives to soda companies to make up for the lack of lemonade stands. As someone who lives in Austin, many people here are absolutely delusional about Austin's attractiveness and future. Austin's once-interesting college/hippie culture is rapidly dying and being replaced by a suburban megalopolis culture (San Austonio, here we come). Historically low cost of living is going up (in no small part due to Californification of Austin politics (and I used to live in CA, so I know what this looks like)). Austin's already crumbling infrastructure cannot handle more people. Commutes are already atrocious and are getting worse. Everything that made Austin attractive to tech workers is going away. Unless the Austin government gets out of the way, Austin's budding tech industry will die.
- scarecrowbob 10y ago
  I live in Fredericksburg. They all look like too many cars for me (even FBG is not what it was when I dot here) :D For what it's worth, I like SA a lot more than Austin. The culture isn't dying, it looks dead to me, but you can still get way out in the sticks and find parts of it still alive.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Government is the greatest asset and liability to any business. On one hand, it took sweet, juicy government grants and contracts to lay the economic and knowledge foundation that was needed for Austin to grow into a tech hub. On the other hand - and this is a particularly American tendency - people want a perfect society and a free society. What they often get is neither, and only sometimes both. There is still plenty for government to do. No private actor has the will or power to solve the traffic problem alone. Condofication and breakneck sprawl need government intervention or else things will keep going the way they are: worse. And then you've got the perpetual rejections of mass transit plans and of course Prop 1. But sadly I think you're most right about the Californication of politics, which will only cement the old guard against the newcomers, encourage bullying over discussion, and make it ever harder to fix the problems that grow by the day.
  - blisterpeanuts 10y ago
isidoreSeville 10y ago
The simple fact of the matter is that we live in a litigious society. If the City could be confident that no lawsuit against a lemonade stand (and the City) would be heard by a judge, we wouldn't need this. But that isn't the reality of the world.
- blisterpeanuts 10y ago
  The city is mainly concerned about universal enforcement of its regulations for what they think is the public good. In this case, obviously it's an overzealous and misguided concern, but minus any guidance from the voters, they'll just enforce the rules up the wazoo, as bureaucrats are prone to do.
DanBC 10y ago
There was a Forbes article that got some discussion a few years ago. Perhaps people are interested in that too? (161 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665
whatshisface 10y ago
If we were too nice to kids, adults would start using them as park salsepeople - imagine a "lemonade stand kit." I think the system of "police look the other way" actually works really well here, as it prevents anyone from building something too socially awful. Our positive sentiment would evaporate pretty quickly if every visit to a public place entailed saying "no" to a constant stream of girl scouts.
blisterpeanuts 10y ago
Is lemonade that dangerous? If they were selling meat, I could understand some amount of concern about proper handling, refrigeration, etc. But lemonade? The acid would kill most bacteria, and the most you have to worry about is fermentation, which might kick in after 48 hours or so if warm enough.
- DanBC 10y ago
  It's pretty easy to find examples of food poisoning caused by lemonade. http://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/foodborne-illness-outbreaks/lemonade-source-of-norovirus-outbreak/ http://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/foodborne-illness-outbreaks... This is "just" norovirus, but there are other more serious outbreaks.
  - blisterpeanuts 10y ago
    Actually, no, it's not that easy to find examples. Yes, your single example came up in Google, but really, how many incidents of food poisoning by lemonade stands occur each year? Norovirus usually comes from contact with stool or vomit. I suppose that's possible if a kid is really dirty about their bathroom habits and so forth. I worry a lot more about the thousands of cases of illness caused by bad sanitation at restaurants around the country. Now there you'll find lots of examples. Hep C occasionally is spread by a restaurant worker; a dozen people may catch it before they track down the culprit.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > but really, how many incidents of food poisoning by lemonade stands occur each year? "They" would claim that's because the regulation is working, right? The reason it doesn't show up more is because food poisoning is very common, and so "person catches food poisoning" is not going to be reported anywhere that Google will index. > I suppose that's possible if a kid is really dirty about their bathroom habits and so forth. No, and this is an important point. Most people do not wash their hands properly, and norovirus is really easy to transmit. If anything it's amazing that norovirus isn't more common. (I agree with your points about actual restaurants btw.)
obelix150 10y ago
You think Austin's bad check out the Hamptons cops. Seinfeld and his kids went to the hoosegow. http://www.27east.com/mobile/article.cfm//Amagansett/119742/No-Lemonade-For-You-Seinfeld-Lemonade-Stand-Shut-Down-in-East-Hampton-Village http://www.27east.com/mobile/article.cfm//Amagansett/119742/...
pdxgene 10y ago
Whatever you do, don't try to start a lemonade-sharing service...
gonzo 10y ago
Austin sucks. Don't move here.
- spacemanmatt 10y ago
  It's really hot, too.
gumby 10y ago
Palo Alto too: about 10 years ago my kid tried to sell herbs from his wagon on the street by at the farmer's market (no snickering: peppermint, thyme etc). The woman who "runs" the market called the cops. The poor cop said he didn't see why he should put an end to things but that if the woman kept calling the cops he'd have to tell my kid to stop...which is what happened. Really a terrible lesson in entrepreneurship, especially for Palo Alto! At least it did make the front page of the Daily Post, which considered it "a shocking incident" and lead with a picture of a photogenic kid looking dejected.

41 points by luu 10y ago

I have a better idea: give the kids an option to print out a piece of paper formatted by the local government that reads: "The city of Austin seeks to strike a balance between encouragement of entrepreneurship and safety to the consumer. This establishment is not compliant with restaurant-grade cleanliness standards. By posting this certificate, the vendor acknowledges some basic restrictions (no handling of raw meat etc), and the customer accepts the risk of consuming at an unregulated establishment. Any blatant violations to the health code should be reported to (blah blah blah)." One printer, one piece of paper, some tape. We can do better.

hasenj 10y ago

I bet no one would bother following these regulations.

scarecrowbob 10y ago
In Texas is that this is pretty common, even for larger laws that impact adults and enterprises. But then we end up with the police looking the other way on DWIs or pot possession... for "good people".
- smhenderson 10y ago
  DWIs or pot possession You make is sound as if you think they are equally bad. Can't say I agree. I'd much rather have a friend or loved one walking around with marijuana in their possession than have them drinking and driving. Actually I could have just stopped at drinking.
  - scarecrowbob 10y ago
    That wasn't my intent. I personally don't care if folks do either (if you hit someone while drunk, I think it's a much worse offense, but if you don't hit folks, then I don't think that the current laws are relaxed enough and yeesh, I think pot should be on sale in HEB). My point is that I know a lot of old white dudes who smoke pot and who will never go to jail, whereas I have lots of young, poor, brown friends who are constantly harassed. It's a lot easier to fight bad laws if they are applied even to the privileged.
    - smhenderson 10y ago
      Oh, when then we are in total agreement. Rereading your comment in context I see how I misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying...
SwellJoe 10y ago
I think what's more important is will police enforce those regulations? In my experience, APD is pretty tough on food distribution; even giving away meals to homeless folks is regulated pretty tightly, and in ways that are maybe counter-productive to public welfare.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Ugh, when I was a teen I worked as a produce clerk in an ailing grocery chain that had just been bought out by a regional competitor. One of the biggest changes was that company policy forbade donations of old produce or meats, but old baked goods were ok. Basically, a bunch of rich shareholders figured it would be all-in-all better to insulate their assets from lawsuits instead of helping feed the poor and hungry. Threw away a lot of good food that year...
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    I thought usual practice in such cases was to say "sorry, rules say we can't give this away, we have to throw it in the blue dumpster out back at 11pm on thursday".
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      I wish they were that cool about it. Happy ending: a few investors bought out some of the old stores and reinvigorated the old brand, and now things are...well it's no Wegmans, but the store is certainly better than when I was there. Don't know about disposal rules though...

6stringmerc 10y ago

There's plenty of unincorporated area around Austin that motivated parents, unwilling to comply with long-standing catch-all regulations, can map out as a potential market. Then they can pack up the car, drive the kids out, set up shop, and perform their business venture without the pesky administrative oversight and potential fiscal penalties that go along with it. Granted, I don't think cows buy a lot of lemonade, but that's a different issue.

SwellJoe 10y ago
Cows don't naturally eat a lot of corn or soy, either, but capitalism has solved that problem.
- B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
  "You won't believe this one drink that turns any cow into Kobe beef."
  - gonzo 10y ago
    Japan hates them

wyager 10y ago

Soon we'll hear about how Austin is offering tax incentives to soda companies to make up for the lack of lemonade stands. As someone who lives in Austin, many people here are absolutely delusional about Austin's attractiveness and future. Austin's once-interesting college/hippie culture is rapidly dying and being replaced by a suburban megalopolis culture (San Austonio, here we come). Historically low cost of living is going up (in no small part due to Californification of Austin politics (and I used to live in CA, so I know what this looks like)). Austin's already crumbling infrastructure cannot handle more people. Commutes are already atrocious and are getting worse. Everything that made Austin attractive to tech workers is going away. Unless the Austin government gets out of the way, Austin's budding tech industry will die.

scarecrowbob 10y ago
I live in Fredericksburg. They all look like too many cars for me (even FBG is not what it was when I dot here) :D For what it's worth, I like SA a lot more than Austin. The culture isn't dying, it looks dead to me, but you can still get way out in the sticks and find parts of it still alive.
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Government is the greatest asset and liability to any business. On one hand, it took sweet, juicy government grants and contracts to lay the economic and knowledge foundation that was needed for Austin to grow into a tech hub. On the other hand - and this is a particularly American tendency - people want a perfect society and a free society. What they often get is neither, and only sometimes both. There is still plenty for government to do. No private actor has the will or power to solve the traffic problem alone. Condofication and breakneck sprawl need government intervention or else things will keep going the way they are: worse. And then you've got the perpetual rejections of mass transit plans and of course Prop 1. But sadly I think you're most right about the Californication of politics, which will only cement the old guard against the newcomers, encourage bullying over discussion, and make it ever harder to fix the problems that grow by the day.
- blisterpeanuts 10y ago

isidoreSeville 10y ago

The simple fact of the matter is that we live in a litigious society. If the City could be confident that no lawsuit against a lemonade stand (and the City) would be heard by a judge, we wouldn't need this. But that isn't the reality of the world.

blisterpeanuts 10y ago
The city is mainly concerned about universal enforcement of its regulations for what they think is the public good. In this case, obviously it's an overzealous and misguided concern, but minus any guidance from the voters, they'll just enforce the rules up the wazoo, as bureaucrats are prone to do.

DanBC 10y ago

There was a Forbes article that got some discussion a few years ago. Perhaps people are interested in that too? (161 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665

whatshisface 10y ago

If we were too nice to kids, adults would start using them as park salsepeople - imagine a "lemonade stand kit." I think the system of "police look the other way" actually works really well here, as it prevents anyone from building something too socially awful. Our positive sentiment would evaporate pretty quickly if every visit to a public place entailed saying "no" to a constant stream of girl scouts.

blisterpeanuts 10y ago

Is lemonade that dangerous? If they were selling meat, I could understand some amount of concern about proper handling, refrigeration, etc. But lemonade? The acid would kill most bacteria, and the most you have to worry about is fermentation, which might kick in after 48 hours or so if warm enough.

DanBC 10y ago
It's pretty easy to find examples of food poisoning caused by lemonade. http://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/foodborne-illness-outbreaks/lemonade-source-of-norovirus-outbreak/ http://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/foodborne-illness-outbreaks... This is "just" norovirus, but there are other more serious outbreaks.
- blisterpeanuts 10y ago
  Actually, no, it's not that easy to find examples. Yes, your single example came up in Google, but really, how many incidents of food poisoning by lemonade stands occur each year? Norovirus usually comes from contact with stool or vomit. I suppose that's possible if a kid is really dirty about their bathroom habits and so forth. I worry a lot more about the thousands of cases of illness caused by bad sanitation at restaurants around the country. Now there you'll find lots of examples. Hep C occasionally is spread by a restaurant worker; a dozen people may catch it before they track down the culprit.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > but really, how many incidents of food poisoning by lemonade stands occur each year? "They" would claim that's because the regulation is working, right? The reason it doesn't show up more is because food poisoning is very common, and so "person catches food poisoning" is not going to be reported anywhere that Google will index. > I suppose that's possible if a kid is really dirty about their bathroom habits and so forth. No, and this is an important point. Most people do not wash their hands properly, and norovirus is really easy to transmit. If anything it's amazing that norovirus isn't more common. (I agree with your points about actual restaurants btw.)

obelix150 10y ago

You think Austin's bad check out the Hamptons cops. Seinfeld and his kids went to the hoosegow. http://www.27east.com/mobile/article.cfm//Amagansett/119742/No-Lemonade-For-You-Seinfeld-Lemonade-Stand-Shut-Down-in-East-Hampton-Village http://www.27east.com/mobile/article.cfm//Amagansett/119742/...

pdxgene 10y ago

Whatever you do, don't try to start a lemonade-sharing service...

gonzo 10y ago

Austin sucks. Don't move here.

spacemanmatt 10y ago
It's really hot, too.

gumby 10y ago

Palo Alto too: about 10 years ago my kid tried to sell herbs from his wagon on the street by at the farmer's market (no snickering: peppermint, thyme etc). The woman who "runs" the market called the cops. The poor cop said he didn't see why he should put an end to things but that if the woman kept calling the cops he'd have to tell my kid to stop...which is what happened. Really a terrible lesson in entrepreneurship, especially for Palo Alto! At least it did make the front page of the Daily Post, which considered it "a shocking incident" and lead with a picture of a photogenic kid looking dejected.