4 ms·

Does anyone else see a future where programmers need to get a licence to practice their craft?

by Rmilb 10y ago

simonh 10y ago
Companies already need licenses to produce software for various safety or life critical applications, such as medical devices.
cududa 10y ago
Then perhaps we can put to bed the stupid "Engineers or developers" argument
- urda 10y ago
  It's not that difficult to put that to bed today. Did you receive some form of a Computer Engineering degree from an ABET institution (just using the U.S. for this example)? Congratulations you are an engineer. Did you receive a Computer Science degree, Computer Information Systems degree, boot camp graduate, self taught or otherwise? Congratulations you are a developer.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - jzymbaluk 10y ago
    But what about an ABET-accredited Computer Science degree? Does that make me a Develogineer?
    - trentmb 10y ago
      ABET has separate accreditation for Computing and Engineering. http://www.abet.org/accreditation/ http://www.abet.org/accreditation/
  - jedberg 10y ago
    So you're saying you have to have a four year engineering degree to be an engineer, and you don't count a computer science degree? Did you know that MIT, Stanford, Berkeley and Harvard do not offer Computer Engineering degrees (only Computer Science or Electrical Engineering or EECS). Also you've completely discounted self taught practitioners, some of whom are often far more competent than people with actual Computer Engineering degrees. Hence, it really isn't "put to bed" yet.
    - dhd415 10y ago
      Course 6-3, the "computer science" major at MIT, is officially titled "Computer Science and Engineering". Maybe MIT 6-3 grads can call themselves both developers and engineers?
    - danielweber 10y ago
      Computer Science and Engineering: https://www.eecs.mit.edu/academics-admissions/undergraduate-programs/course-6-3-computer-science-and-engineering https://www.eecs.mit.edu/academics-admissions/undergraduate-...
      - jedberg 10y ago
        That's a single course, not a degree.
        danielweber 10y ago
        This was really annoying to go dig up in my attic, but I found it: http://i.imgur.com/eiF1INY.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eiF1INY.jpg Did I say this was really annoying? Because it was. At least it wasn't as tacky as posting my diploma. Please don't tell people from MIT what MIT offers.
        jedberg 10y ago
        You could have just linked to the website. :) I guess things have changed in 20 years. But really you only proved my point. OP said that a computer engineering degree makes you an engineer and a computer science degree makes you a developer. So what does a computer science and engineering major make you? My main point was you can't decide if someone is an engineer based on the name of the degree they were granted.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  Except that engineers do not require a license to practice their craft either, except in certain situations.
cloudjacker 10y ago
Yeah, and thats when you know "tech" has actually changed the world instead of just imagining it does. A civil engineer pointed out to me that the licenses come when it really starts to affect people and infrastructure. Programming does this by proxy, but not directly enough yet. New York State's bitlicense was the closest to burdening software engineers with licensing requirements, until the one person at the head of the financial agency clarified it wasn't intended to be interpreted that way, and modified the wording of the law.
- nightski 10y ago
  So one can't change the world unless lives are endangered. That doesn't seem very logical.
  - cloudjacker 10y ago
    Making people's phones overheat and changing file extensions on their PCs isn't enough of a problem Thats all it comes down to. When programmers are doing things that actually endanger people's lives directly, actually alter the physical living environment directly, then you will see governing authorities pushing for licenses.
    - dv_dt 10y ago
      Engineers design passenger aircraft, rockets, cars, and medical devices without needing licenses - the products themselves are strongly regulated. Requiring the engineers developing the product to carry licenses will just raise the overhead cost of developing such products. I think the key difference is certifying the product when there are multiple instances of the product being made is cheaper. For civil engineering, most of the projects are unique (and even if the design is something of a copy - then the sites present unique challenges). So maybe it makes more sense there to license the engineers.
    - tim333 10y ago
      >When programmers are doing things that actually endanger people's lives directly... Toyota famously had some issues with their software and fatalities. It'd be hard to license software development though because it's such a quickly changing field. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9643204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9643204
ghaff 10y ago
For engineers who have to sign off on matters related to regulatory bodies, that's been the case more or less forever. I assume that includes software engineers who approve software that has to be approved by regulators. It's certainly true of construction plans, etc. In my first engineering job (offshore drilling rig design and construction), pretty much all the senior engineers had PEs.
- mcherm 10y ago
  > I assume that includes software engineers who approve software that has to be approved by regulators. Not that I know of.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    According to this article in IEEE [1] "Thirty states currently require licensure for software engineers working on systems that affect the health, safety, and welfare of the public as well as those offering their services directly to the public." That seems a reasonable source but I don't know how common it is in practice. [1] http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-roundup/opinions/ieee-roundup/misconceptions-about-licensing-software-engineers http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-roundup/opinions/ieee-roun...
trentmb 10y ago
You don't have to (yet), but there is a PE exam for software engineering: https://cdn.ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf https://cdn.ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SWE-Apr-201...
digi_owl 10y ago
I think a lower hanging fruit would be to push for the adoption of Rust, Ada, or similar languages that close or mitigate all too common errors.
ComteDeLaFere 10y ago
Since many of us fully expect AI to accomplish all programming in the future, I don't think so. Unless a licensing regime is humankind's last stand against AI.

Does anyone else see a future where programmers need to get a licence to practice their craft?

by Rmilb 10y ago

Does anyone else see a future where programmers need to get a licence to practice their craft?

Companies already need licenses to produce software for various safety or life critical applications, such as medical devices.

cududa 10y ago

Then perhaps we can put to bed the stupid "Engineers or developers" argument

urda 10y ago
It's not that difficult to put that to bed today. Did you receive some form of a Computer Engineering degree from an ABET institution (just using the U.S. for this example)? Congratulations you are an engineer. Did you receive a Computer Science degree, Computer Information Systems degree, boot camp graduate, self taught or otherwise? Congratulations you are a developer.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jzymbaluk 10y ago
  But what about an ABET-accredited Computer Science degree? Does that make me a Develogineer?
  - trentmb 10y ago
    ABET has separate accreditation for Computing and Engineering. http://www.abet.org/accreditation/ http://www.abet.org/accreditation/
- jedberg 10y ago
  So you're saying you have to have a four year engineering degree to be an engineer, and you don't count a computer science degree? Did you know that MIT, Stanford, Berkeley and Harvard do not offer Computer Engineering degrees (only Computer Science or Electrical Engineering or EECS). Also you've completely discounted self taught practitioners, some of whom are often far more competent than people with actual Computer Engineering degrees. Hence, it really isn't "put to bed" yet.
  - dhd415 10y ago
    Course 6-3, the "computer science" major at MIT, is officially titled "Computer Science and Engineering". Maybe MIT 6-3 grads can call themselves both developers and engineers?
  - danielweber 10y ago
    Computer Science and Engineering: https://www.eecs.mit.edu/academics-admissions/undergraduate-programs/course-6-3-computer-science-and-engineering https://www.eecs.mit.edu/academics-admissions/undergraduate-...
    - jedberg 10y ago
      That's a single course, not a degree.
      - danielweber 10y ago
        This was really annoying to go dig up in my attic, but I found it: http://i.imgur.com/eiF1INY.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eiF1INY.jpg Did I say this was really annoying? Because it was. At least it wasn't as tacky as posting my diploma. Please don't tell people from MIT what MIT offers.
        jedberg 10y ago
        You could have just linked to the website. :) I guess things have changed in 20 years. But really you only proved my point. OP said that a computer engineering degree makes you an engineer and a computer science degree makes you a developer. So what does a computer science and engineering major make you? My main point was you can't decide if someone is an engineer based on the name of the degree they were granted.
vonmoltke 10y ago
Except that engineers do not require a license to practice their craft either, except in certain situations.

cloudjacker 10y ago

Yeah, and thats when you know "tech" has actually changed the world instead of just imagining it does. A civil engineer pointed out to me that the licenses come when it really starts to affect people and infrastructure. Programming does this by proxy, but not directly enough yet. New York State's bitlicense was the closest to burdening software engineers with licensing requirements, until the one person at the head of the financial agency clarified it wasn't intended to be interpreted that way, and modified the wording of the law.

nightski 10y ago
So one can't change the world unless lives are endangered. That doesn't seem very logical.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  Making people's phones overheat and changing file extensions on their PCs isn't enough of a problem Thats all it comes down to. When programmers are doing things that actually endanger people's lives directly, actually alter the physical living environment directly, then you will see governing authorities pushing for licenses.
  - dv_dt 10y ago
    Engineers design passenger aircraft, rockets, cars, and medical devices without needing licenses - the products themselves are strongly regulated. Requiring the engineers developing the product to carry licenses will just raise the overhead cost of developing such products. I think the key difference is certifying the product when there are multiple instances of the product being made is cheaper. For civil engineering, most of the projects are unique (and even if the design is something of a copy - then the sites present unique challenges). So maybe it makes more sense there to license the engineers.
  - tim333 10y ago
    >When programmers are doing things that actually endanger people's lives directly... Toyota famously had some issues with their software and fatalities. It'd be hard to license software development though because it's such a quickly changing field. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9643204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9643204

ghaff 10y ago

For engineers who have to sign off on matters related to regulatory bodies, that's been the case more or less forever. I assume that includes software engineers who approve software that has to be approved by regulators. It's certainly true of construction plans, etc. In my first engineering job (offshore drilling rig design and construction), pretty much all the senior engineers had PEs.

mcherm 10y ago
> I assume that includes software engineers who approve software that has to be approved by regulators. Not that I know of.
- ghaff 10y ago
  According to this article in IEEE [1] "Thirty states currently require licensure for software engineers working on systems that affect the health, safety, and welfare of the public as well as those offering their services directly to the public." That seems a reasonable source but I don't know how common it is in practice. [1] http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-roundup/opinions/ieee-roundup/misconceptions-about-licensing-software-engineers http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-roundup/opinions/ieee-roun...

trentmb 10y ago

You don't have to (yet), but there is a PE exam for software engineering: https://cdn.ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf https://cdn.ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SWE-Apr-201...

digi_owl 10y ago

I think a lower hanging fruit would be to push for the adoption of Rust, Ada, or similar languages that close or mitigate all too common errors.

ComteDeLaFere 10y ago

Since many of us fully expect AI to accomplish all programming in the future, I don't think so. Unless a licensing regime is humankind's last stand against AI.