5 ms·

Small Basic: Programming Is Fun

19 points by bensummers 17y ago

krainboltgreene 17y ago
Someone needs to make a Small Ruby. (Also, who the hell gives a teenager a touch tablet! I want those parents :( )
- darshan 17y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackety_Hack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackety_Hack
- tel 17y ago
  I think in a post iPad world it might become a lot more common.
bliss 17y ago
Well I started with Sinclair Basic, I know plenty of others that started with some flavour of MS Basic on various 8bit micros. This seems like a sensible step from Microsoft to go back to their roots somewhat with this. imo Apple really needs something like this for their ipad
timinman 17y ago
'Someone needs to make a Small Ruby.' Thats exactly what _why was doing with Hackety Hack and Shoes - in fact, I have no doubt that they got their inspiration from _why. I believe the .net guys helped sponsor the art and code event why spoke at just before his departure from the internet. In fact... _why, is that you?! No, probably not - there are no cartoon foxes or bunnies. Here's the current shoes: http://github.com/ashbb/shoes http://github.com/ashbb/shoes And Hackety Hack: http://github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack/ http://github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack/ And, for good measure, the cartoon foxes: http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/ http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/
reader5000 17y ago
Does anybody else find all microsoft.com domains inaccessible using chrome, or is it just me?
- clusterfu_k 17y ago
  just you.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- sukuriant 17y ago
  yeah, I'm using Chrome and it works fine for me :)
33 17y ago
I challenge anyone reading this to explain the pedagogical advantage for children this or any other BASIC has over Squeak Smalltalk and eToys.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  It prevents kids from using non-Microsoft technologies?
- halo 17y ago
  Two half-decent reasons come to mind. One is teacher familiarity. Many people have used a variant of BASIC before, whether in 80s home computers, via Qbasic or VB on PCs in the 90s, or via VBScript in Office. This may make potential teachers less intimidated, more confident, and more willing to teach it to kids. Secondly, I can imagine that some schools use VB.NET for later courses, and this could provide a simple introduction to move towards using the full-blown VB.NET, and being able to easily transfer what they already know. That said, I don't really see why it needs to have a pedagogical advantage. My initial feeling was that it was just someone looking to scratch an itch for nostalgia's sake, missing the days when every computer came with a BASIC, and a quick look through the blog pretty much confirms that (http://blogs.msdn.com/smallbasic/archive/2008/10/23/hello-world.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/smallbasic/archive/2008/10/23/hello-wo...).
rbanffy 17y ago
Because BASIC should be enough for anyone.
Kilimanjaro 17y ago
From the getting started guide: Here is the first program we wrote: TextWindow.WriteLine("Hello World") It literally translates in the computer’s mind to: Write Hello World Hmm, so why not use 'Write Hello World' instead? Why make things complicated?
- csomar 17y ago
  MSFT tries to introduce kids to programming, not any programming, but Dot Net programming. TextWindow.WriteLine("Hello World") Obj.method(arg) is the Dot Net model. Write Hello World is easier, but is not the Dot Net model. Learning the first, you'll be more inclined to continue in the Microsoft track ;)
  - lsb 17y ago
    It's a pity, because print "hello world" is valid Perl/Ruby/Python, and the punctuation helps clarify in this case.
  - nopassrecover 17y ago
    MSFT tries to introduce kids to imperative programming because this is what 99% of programmers use. The "MSFT .NET model" also includes F# (printfn "Hello World!") as well as implementations of every language known to man (Ada, Python, Ruby, Lisp, Pascal and dozens of unique languages).
    - tel 17y ago
      I think part of the op's argument was to consider what the best way to learn programming is. Imperative/OO programming is important to learn someday, but it's not necessarily the easiest or best one to start on. So Microsoft's motivations might not be clearly aligned with learning. Should or shouldn't they be?
      - nopassrecover 17y ago
        Perhaps I was misguided by the insinuation that Microsoft is behind some imperative language conspiracy. In any case, 99% of the code that runs this world was written in an imperative language and most universities (I believe MIT is an exception with Scheme?) will teach an imperative language before any other. It may not be the easiest (I'm biased, my mind mapped instantly) or best to start with, but it certainly is the one most commonly started with and most commonly used. I'm pretty sure Microsoft's motivations are simply to make the best development environment they can because at the end of the day that's what developers will use meaning more server licence purchases. This is evidenced by the relative freedom their dev techs get and by the insane amount of programming genius they have hired in this area.
NIL8 17y ago
Cool Stuff. Wonder what life would be like if I'd had that as a kid.
chaosmachine 17y ago
Microsoft claims to respect intellectual property, but they're blatantly infringing on the Tetris trademark in their game example. Certainly they'd send a cease and desist if someone made a "Linux Halo" so why do they think it's ok to make a "Small Basic Tetris"? The company that owns Tetris hasn't exactly been shy about enforcing their rights, either: http://mashable.com/2008/08/26/iphone-tris-app/ http://mashable.com/2008/08/26/iphone-tris-app/
- algolicious 17y ago
  Don't be so sure that they don't have permission. Microsoft has implemented Tetris before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Entertainment_Pack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Entertainment_Pack
  - chaosmachine 17y ago
    That was released 20 years ago (1990), the licensing situation for Tetris has changed a lot since then. There's actually a specific set of guidelines The Tetris Company enforces for a game to carry the Tetris name. They dictate everything from the piece colors to the playfield size: http://tetris.wikia.com/wiki/Tetris_Guideline http://tetris.wikia.com/wiki/Tetris_Guideline Aside from that, if they were using it under license, there would be a licensing blurb, similar to what you see in the footer of tetris.com.
sukuriant 17y ago
Does anyone else notice that they seem to be using a variant of Logo for this project? Complete with calling the things on the screen 'turtles'? I Logo does take out a ton of the work for programmers who just want to get something on the screen as fast as possible.

19 points by bensummers 17y ago

krainboltgreene 17y ago

Someone needs to make a Small Ruby. (Also, who the hell gives a teenager a touch tablet! I want those parents :( )

darshan 17y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackety_Hack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackety_Hack
tel 17y ago
I think in a post iPad world it might become a lot more common.

bliss 17y ago

Well I started with Sinclair Basic, I know plenty of others that started with some flavour of MS Basic on various 8bit micros. This seems like a sensible step from Microsoft to go back to their roots somewhat with this. imo Apple really needs something like this for their ipad

timinman 17y ago

'Someone needs to make a Small Ruby.' Thats exactly what _why was doing with Hackety Hack and Shoes - in fact, I have no doubt that they got their inspiration from _why. I believe the .net guys helped sponsor the art and code event why spoke at just before his departure from the internet. In fact... _why, is that you?! No, probably not - there are no cartoon foxes or bunnies. Here's the current shoes: http://github.com/ashbb/shoes http://github.com/ashbb/shoes And Hackety Hack: http://github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack/ http://github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack/ And, for good measure, the cartoon foxes: http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/ http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/

reader5000 17y ago

Does anybody else find all microsoft.com domains inaccessible using chrome, or is it just me?

clusterfu_k 17y ago
just you.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
sukuriant 17y ago
yeah, I'm using Chrome and it works fine for me :)

33 17y ago

I challenge anyone reading this to explain the pedagogical advantage for children this or any other BASIC has over Squeak Smalltalk and eToys.

rbanffy 17y ago
It prevents kids from using non-Microsoft technologies?
halo 17y ago
Two half-decent reasons come to mind. One is teacher familiarity. Many people have used a variant of BASIC before, whether in 80s home computers, via Qbasic or VB on PCs in the 90s, or via VBScript in Office. This may make potential teachers less intimidated, more confident, and more willing to teach it to kids. Secondly, I can imagine that some schools use VB.NET for later courses, and this could provide a simple introduction to move towards using the full-blown VB.NET, and being able to easily transfer what they already know. That said, I don't really see why it needs to have a pedagogical advantage. My initial feeling was that it was just someone looking to scratch an itch for nostalgia's sake, missing the days when every computer came with a BASIC, and a quick look through the blog pretty much confirms that (http://blogs.msdn.com/smallbasic/archive/2008/10/23/hello-world.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/smallbasic/archive/2008/10/23/hello-wo...).

rbanffy 17y ago

Because BASIC should be enough for anyone.

Kilimanjaro 17y ago

From the getting started guide: Here is the first program we wrote: TextWindow.WriteLine("Hello World") It literally translates in the computer’s mind to: Write Hello World Hmm, so why not use 'Write Hello World' instead? Why make things complicated?

csomar 17y ago
MSFT tries to introduce kids to programming, not any programming, but Dot Net programming. TextWindow.WriteLine("Hello World") Obj.method(arg) is the Dot Net model. Write Hello World is easier, but is not the Dot Net model. Learning the first, you'll be more inclined to continue in the Microsoft track ;)
- lsb 17y ago
  It's a pity, because print "hello world" is valid Perl/Ruby/Python, and the punctuation helps clarify in this case.
- nopassrecover 17y ago
  MSFT tries to introduce kids to imperative programming because this is what 99% of programmers use. The "MSFT .NET model" also includes F# (printfn "Hello World!") as well as implementations of every language known to man (Ada, Python, Ruby, Lisp, Pascal and dozens of unique languages).
  - tel 17y ago
    I think part of the op's argument was to consider what the best way to learn programming is. Imperative/OO programming is important to learn someday, but it's not necessarily the easiest or best one to start on. So Microsoft's motivations might not be clearly aligned with learning. Should or shouldn't they be?
    - nopassrecover 17y ago
      Perhaps I was misguided by the insinuation that Microsoft is behind some imperative language conspiracy. In any case, 99% of the code that runs this world was written in an imperative language and most universities (I believe MIT is an exception with Scheme?) will teach an imperative language before any other. It may not be the easiest (I'm biased, my mind mapped instantly) or best to start with, but it certainly is the one most commonly started with and most commonly used. I'm pretty sure Microsoft's motivations are simply to make the best development environment they can because at the end of the day that's what developers will use meaning more server licence purchases. This is evidenced by the relative freedom their dev techs get and by the insane amount of programming genius they have hired in this area.

NIL8 17y ago

Cool Stuff. Wonder what life would be like if I'd had that as a kid.

chaosmachine 17y ago

Microsoft claims to respect intellectual property, but they're blatantly infringing on the Tetris trademark in their game example. Certainly they'd send a cease and desist if someone made a "Linux Halo" so why do they think it's ok to make a "Small Basic Tetris"? The company that owns Tetris hasn't exactly been shy about enforcing their rights, either: http://mashable.com/2008/08/26/iphone-tris-app/ http://mashable.com/2008/08/26/iphone-tris-app/

algolicious 17y ago
Don't be so sure that they don't have permission. Microsoft has implemented Tetris before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Entertainment_Pack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Entertainment_Pack
- chaosmachine 17y ago
  That was released 20 years ago (1990), the licensing situation for Tetris has changed a lot since then. There's actually a specific set of guidelines The Tetris Company enforces for a game to carry the Tetris name. They dictate everything from the piece colors to the playfield size: http://tetris.wikia.com/wiki/Tetris_Guideline http://tetris.wikia.com/wiki/Tetris_Guideline Aside from that, if they were using it under license, there would be a licensing blurb, similar to what you see in the footer of tetris.com.

sukuriant 17y ago

Does anyone else notice that they seem to be using a variant of Logo for this project? Complete with calling the things on the screen 'turtles'? I Logo does take out a ton of the work for programmers who just want to get something on the screen as fast as possible.