4 ms·

It just seems weird to correlate power with morality. Most people, powerless or not, simply like to cover their asses. The powerful simply use the best means po

It just seems weird to correlate power with morality. Most people, powerless or not, simply like to cover their asses. The powerful simply use the best means possible for doing this which is following the rules since the law tends to be on the side of the powerful. This also makes me wonder how a mob boss fits into this scheme since such people are considered powerful by most definitions.

lionhearted 17y ago
> Most people, powerless or not, simply like to cover their asses. My experience is the opposite - the most effective people I know spend the least time covering their asses, and put themselves on the line the most. Most people are deathly afraid of stepping up, taking responsibility, being a decionmaker, and being the one to blame if things go wrong - thus, the people who do step up and take responsibility usually ascend to great amounts of influence and, well, "power". Time spent ass-covering is time not spent doing something more effective.
- Mz 17y ago
  What you are saying looks to me like it fits with this remark from the article: in determining whether an act is right or wrong, the powerful focus on whether rules and principles are violated, whereas the powerless focus on the consequences. For this reason, the powerful are also more inclined to stick to the rules, irrespective of whether this has positive or negative effects, whereas the powerless are more inclined to make exceptions. I think a more interesting question to me would be in regards to people following "internal rules" vs. "external rules". People like Jesus and Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. seem to be willing to break external rules out of deference to a highly developed set of internal rules -- or, perhaps, they follow a set of rules grounded more in reality than social convention. By that I mean that things like racial discrimination aren't simply "morally wrong", they are bad thinking with negative consequences. For example, the (racial) discrimination thing: My recollection is that one of the most successful crime lords of all time was willing to work with the Irish mob, the Jewish mob, etc whereas historically the Irish mob only worked with the Irish and excluded the Jews, Italians, etc. Same for other groups: They were all quite insular. Whether you are a crime lord or a business, inclusiveness is a practical strength which gives you greater access to whomever happens to have talent. If you are the only place some people can go to get a fair shake, Bonus! -- because they will work their butts off for you and be die-hard loyalists. Not because they really give a rat's patootie about you but simply because (to quote a favorite movie line from "Other People's Money") you aren't their best friend, you're their only friend.
  - nazgulnarsil 17y ago
    smart power associates with power, regardless of origin.
- greenlblue 17y ago
  I said "most people" and not "all people" and I don't know that many effective people since everyone I know is in the education sector and they all simply follow conventions be it in their research or teaching. It's like you said, very few are willing to break the mold but that doesn't mean one can't attain powerful positions by following conventions and not being effective.

lionhearted 17y ago

> Most people, powerless or not, simply like to cover their asses. My experience is the opposite - the most effective people I know spend the least time covering their asses, and put themselves on the line the most. Most people are deathly afraid of stepping up, taking responsibility, being a decionmaker, and being the one to blame if things go wrong - thus, the people who do step up and take responsibility usually ascend to great amounts of influence and, well, "power". Time spent ass-covering is time not spent doing something more effective.

Mz 17y ago
What you are saying looks to me like it fits with this remark from the article: in determining whether an act is right or wrong, the powerful focus on whether rules and principles are violated, whereas the powerless focus on the consequences. For this reason, the powerful are also more inclined to stick to the rules, irrespective of whether this has positive or negative effects, whereas the powerless are more inclined to make exceptions. I think a more interesting question to me would be in regards to people following "internal rules" vs. "external rules". People like Jesus and Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. seem to be willing to break external rules out of deference to a highly developed set of internal rules -- or, perhaps, they follow a set of rules grounded more in reality than social convention. By that I mean that things like racial discrimination aren't simply "morally wrong", they are bad thinking with negative consequences. For example, the (racial) discrimination thing: My recollection is that one of the most successful crime lords of all time was willing to work with the Irish mob, the Jewish mob, etc whereas historically the Irish mob only worked with the Irish and excluded the Jews, Italians, etc. Same for other groups: They were all quite insular. Whether you are a crime lord or a business, inclusiveness is a practical strength which gives you greater access to whomever happens to have talent. If you are the only place some people can go to get a fair shake, Bonus! -- because they will work their butts off for you and be die-hard loyalists. Not because they really give a rat's patootie about you but simply because (to quote a favorite movie line from "Other People's Money") you aren't their best friend, you're their only friend.
- nazgulnarsil 17y ago
  smart power associates with power, regardless of origin.
greenlblue 17y ago
I said "most people" and not "all people" and I don't know that many effective people since everyone I know is in the education sector and they all simply follow conventions be it in their research or teaching. It's like you said, very few are willing to break the mold but that doesn't mean one can't attain powerful positions by following conventions and not being effective.